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When to protest Alexandria City's extra-legal CHP renewal requirements?

JamesCanby

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L-or-D -

I think you are missing something. After he submits the renewal paperwork the Clerk has 45 calendar days to either issue the CHP, issue a temporary CHP, or provide a written statement as to why the application was denied so that he can then request an ore tenus hearing before the judge to resolve the matter of being disqualified or not.

If the Clerk fails to do any of those 3 actions, the solution is to file a Writ of Mandamus to force the Clerk to do her majesterial duty. That may leave the applicant without a valid Virginia CHP until the matter is resolved.

The applicant cannot legitimately complain against the extra-legal requirements until he is faced with needing to comply or ignore them. He can pre-emptively discuss the issue with the Clerk, but has no actual standing until forced to face the requirements and comply or ignore them. That is usually the negotiating point offered to Clerks - fix the matter now or face legal action later.

One of the things we learned via the Petersburg matter was that the Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court can be a powerful ally. - especially when explaining to wayward Clerks that avoiding legal action is the preferred route.

stay safe.

Skid, I appreciate your remarks, but according to our well-known Virginia legal colleague, I currently have standing to file a Motion for Declaratory Judgement, and I am working up a draft of that filing. If the MfDJ fails, I will submit on the 180th day before my current CHP expires and will do so only in conformance with Commonwealth statutes. If there is pushback on that renewal application, then the WoM will be the next course of action for me.

My goal in filing the MfDJ is to clear up the discrepancies way in advance and thus help everyone who is applying for or renewing their CHP long before it is time for me to renew.
 

JamesCanby

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I'd suggest starting the corrective process now, and then submit your renewal app strictly by state requirements when it's time to, regardless if they're still screwing up.
You'd be serving the other applicants in the mean time, if you can get them straightened out sooner than later. Correcting the situation is the goal, not necessarily just catching them with their pants down.
I leaned on Stafford and Warren Counties, and they made their corrections, whereas Prince William and Chesapeake did not, but I personally only had "standing" in Stafford. There were multiple conversations, time for them to think about it, and then time to make the corrections.
Getting it corrected is the ultimate goal, and the sooner the better, to reduce the number of victims.
If they refuse, then a delayed application later could be bolstered with the fact that you have documented efforts over a protracted time of their defiance of the law despite you trying to get them to correct their policies.

Thanks, CC ... your comments above are my current plan. Please let me know what legal processes you employed, or if they were just conversations. Of special interest is your success in Stafford and Warren -- how did those occur?
 

peter nap

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I disagree. This is purely a situation involving a Commonwealth subdivision's attempt to add non-authorized application requirements. They are not trying to deny 2nd Amendment rights, just trying to make it easier for themselves.

As much as it confuses people sometimes, this isn't a permit issue. It's a matter of the locality NOT obeying state law, which needs to be addressed. I'd discuss it at some length with Philip, James. That way when and if the application is denied or stalled there are resources to immediately respond.

I would also do it sooner rather than wait for the window to insure the permit doesn't lapse. I've had some experience changing local procedures and it takes a very strong and veiled threat of severe consequences to make them move. I say veiled because it's always easier to have them pretend it was THEIR idea.
 

JamesCanby

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As much as it confuses people sometimes, this isn't a permit issue. It's a matter of the locality NOT obeying state law, which needs to be addressed. I'd discuss it at some length with Philip, James. That way when and if the application is denied or stalled there are resources to immediately respond.

I would also do it sooner rather than wait for the window to insure the permit doesn't lapse. I've had some experience changing local procedures and it takes a very strong and veiled threat of severe consequences to make them move. I say veiled because it's always easier to have them pretend it was THEIR idea.

Thanks for clarifying the issue, Peter -- you said it better than I did. (You always do!) I agree with your advice on contacting Philip and doing it now rather than later. Stay tuned.
 

ChristCrusader

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Thanks, CC ... your comments above are my current plan. Please let me know what legal processes you employed, or if they were just conversations. Of special interest is your success in Stafford and Warren -- how did those occur?

Just conversations over the phone, starting with whomever answered to whomever they transferred me to, until each one passed the buck on up to the clerk, which required leaving a message and them calling me back.

Stated one by one the discrepancies, listened to their excuses, cited the law, read the law together over the phone, moments of silence while it sunk in, them deciding to change their office's policy :banana:

Prince William County said she'd think about changing their website to ask for a clearly voluntary SASE, and to give her 3 weeks to do it, but they did not change their wording, and I got busy, haven't followed up. I tried stopping by one day I was in town there, but they wouldn't let my safety boots past their thugs at the door. I'd already walked back to the car after seeing the posting on the door prohibiting cell phones, then walked back to the car when they told me that voice recorders were prohibited too (NOT itemized on the list posted at the door). I wasn't taking my boots off on my third denial of access, because my swollen feet at the time required a shoe horn to get into them, so I gave up. Mind you, I wasn't going to court, just trying to visit the clerk's office... ridiculous! And I was lucky to have even found a parking spot for crying out loud... but I digress...

** edit: I just saw on their site that they've added deeper into the body of the page, "Please include a self-addressed stamped envelope or $.50 (optional)". So a little consolation :)

Chesapeake was actually Norfolk, sorry, and was limited to an email submission only. I couldn't get past the first thug who answered the phone after 6 different other failures-to-pik-up-and-answer-the-da***d-phone, and have never heard back. :banghead:
But now that I've looked at Chesapeake, they're screwed up too, <heavy sigh>

Warren County Sheriff's also corrected items on their website upon request... very polite and grateful to have been alerted to their glitches.

Was not meant to be a statewide crusade, just observations along the way when helping others get their permits. Except Stafford, they hoodwinked my wife and I until I read some VCDL posts and mentally went back and reviewed our experience and realized how many things our clerk had us do beyond legislation's parameters.
 
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JamesCanby

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Just conversations over the phone, starting with whomever answered to whomever they transferred me to, until each one passed the buck on up to the clerk, which required leaving a message and them calling me back.

Stated one by one the discrepancies, listened to their excuses, cited the law, read the law together over the phone, moments of silence while it sunk in, them deciding to change their office's policy :banana:

Prince William County said she'd think about changing their website to ask for a clearly voluntary SASE, and to give her 3 weeks to do it, but they did not change their wording, and I got busy, haven't followed up. I tried stopping by one day I was in town there, but they wouldn't let my safety boots past their thugs at the door. I'd already walked back to the car after seeing the posting on the door prohibiting cell phones, then walked back to the car when they told me that voice recorders were prohibited too (NOT itemized on the list posted at the door). I wasn't taking my boots off on my third denial of access, because my swollen feet at the time required a shoe horn to get into them, so I gave up. Mind you, I wasn't going to court, just trying to visit the clerk's office... ridiculous! And I was lucky to have even found a parking spot for crying out loud... but I digress...

** edit: I just saw on their site that they've added deeper into the body of the page, "Please include a self-addressed stamped envelope or $.50 (optional)". So a little consolation :)

Chesapeake was actually Norfolk, sorry, and was limited to an email submission only. I couldn't get past the first thug who answered the phone after 6 different other failures-to-pik-up-and-answer-the-da***d-phone, and have never heard back. :banghead:
But now that I've looked at Chesapeake, they're screwed up too, <heavy sigh>

Warren County Sheriff's also corrected items on their website upon request... very polite and grateful to have been alerted to their glitches.

Was not meant to be a statewide crusade, just observations along the way when helping others get their permits. Except Stafford, they hoodwinked my wife and I until I read some VCDL posts and mentally went back and reviewed our experience and realized how many things our clerk had us do beyond legislation's parameters.

Thanks, CC ... that's helpful.

They would not let you in the building wearing safety boots????? Are safety boots considered weapons there? SMH!
 

skidmark

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http://lawreview.richmond.edu/the-history-and-scope-of-the-virginia-declaratory-judgments-act/

When a person is apprehensive of being subjected to a future inconvenience, probable, or even possible, to happen, or be occasioned by the neglect, inadvertence or culpability of another, or where any property is bequeathed to one after the death of another, and which the former is desirous of having [it] secured safely for his use; or where a surety is fearful of injury, from the neglect of his principal to pay the debt; in all these cases, and others of this kind, the bill quia timet may be resorted to.[5]
and be sure to read the rest of it for the fine print details.

Learned counsel is learned, but I'm not sure you will actually be inconvenienced if you submit only those things specified in the Code to those entities specified in the Code, as at the expiration of 45 calendar days you may and can ask for your temporary permit which is supposed to be granted unless there is documentation of disqualification. (Just playing Devil's Advocate here, boss.)

Far be it for me, however, to dissuade you from proceeding. I would point out that if nothing else it pokes a sharp stick in the eye of the misbehaving Clerk.:D

stay safe.
 

JamesCanby

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http://lawreview.richmond.edu/the-history-and-scope-of-the-virginia-declaratory-judgments-act/


and be sure to read the rest of it for the fine print details.

Learned counsel is learned, but I'm not sure you will actually be inconvenienced if you submit only those things specified in the Code to those entities specified in the Code, as at the expiration of 45 calendar days you may and can ask for your temporary permit which is supposed to be granted unless there is documentation of disqualification. (Just playing Devil's Advocate here, boss.)

Far be it for me, however, to dissuade you from proceeding. I would point out that if nothing else it pokes a sharp stick in the eye of the misbehaving Clerk.:D

stay safe.

As one officially recognized Curmudgeon to another, your last comment is the telling one ... and sufficient motivation!
 

IanB

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I think Mike is looking for someone just like you so he can poke Alexandria in the eye. Send him a PM and see what he says.
 

TFred

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ChristCrusader

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I would respectfully disagree with your assessment here. They just traded one violation of the law for another. The code states explicitly that they may not even ASK for anything that is not required. Period.

TFred

"*No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."
One fellow challenged whether the SASE was info or documentation.
I thought it was an iffy technicality. Their purpose was to save cost of postage so I focused on the >$50 they were seeking to collect
 

skidmark

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"*No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."
One fellow challenged whether the SASE was info or documentation.
I thought it was an iffy technicality. Their purpose was to save cost of postage so I focused on the >$50 they were seeking to collect

The $50 fee is there to cover ALL of the costs associated with processiong the application. Mailing back the CHP is an activity associated with processing the application.

Asking for additional funds, or a SASE, allows the Clerk to steal money and put it in their budget for other uses.

stay safe.
 

TFred

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"*No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court."
One fellow challenged whether the SASE was info or documentation.
I thought it was an iffy technicality. Their purpose was to save cost of postage so I focused on the >$50 they were seeking to collect
Ha, ok, so if you want to play technicalities... asking for a SASE is indeed, asking for the applicant to provide their home address - information - in a specific format and on a specific medium.

It's against the law.

TFred

ETA: And yes, the home address is on the application, which is where you provide it. Nowhere in the law does it require you to provide it in two places, or in the form of a SASE. :p
 
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ChristCrusader

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The $50 fee is there to cover ALL of the costs associated with processiong the application. Mailing back the CHP is an activity associated with processing the application.
right, which is why they should not require it or demand it.

Asking for additional funds, or a SASE, allows the Clerk to steal money and put it in their budget for other uses.
They're asking for voluntary, optional donations.
My next line of objecting reason would be that the government ASKING for a donation at the time of the submission of an application that requires that govt's approval and subsequent issuance lends the feeling that one must cooperate with any request (however voluntary or optional in nature) to secure the favorable approval and issuance of the permit.

§ 18.2-308.03. Fees for concealed handgun permits.

A....The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who receives the application.
 
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DrMark

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I can't apply yet. My 180-day renewal window opens up in February.

Perhaps I'm missing something... isn't the 180 day window only the start time for syncing the expiration / start dates of the old / new permits?

I know of no reason why you couldn't apply for a renewal at any time. Section 18.2-308.010 even mentions that a new permit can be issued while an existing permit remains valid.

If that's the case, I think sooner would be better than later for your efforts to get the locality to comply with state law.

Thanks for being the point man.
 

skidmark

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ChristCrusader;2061182.... the feeling that one must cooperate with any request (however voluntary or optional in nature) to secure the favorable approval and issuance of the permit. ....[/QUOTE said:
I believe the word you are searching for is "coerce".

stay safe.
 

ChristCrusader

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Perhaps I'm missing something... isn't the 180 day window only the start time for syncing the expiration / start dates of the old / new permits?

I know of no reason why you couldn't apply for a renewal at any time. Section 18.2-308.010 even mentions that a new permit can be issued while an existing permit remains valid.

If that's the case, I think sooner would be better than later for your efforts to get the locality to comply with state law.
§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.

I've read this as establishing when the clerks are willing to process renewals. Are you suggesting demanding that they process a "renewal" prior to 180 days, and then just receive a newly issued one with a new expiration date/cycle?

  • "A. 1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09."
I suppose that the wording allows for such, but...

Isn't a renewal necessary and available because of an inferred expiration? and without an (pending) expiration, then a renewal is not available?
I would think it would be onerous to process 5 year permits for everyone annually, which would be an option by your reasoning.
Interesting wish...
 
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JamesCanby

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Perhaps I'm missing something... isn't the 180 day window only the start time for syncing the expiration / start dates of the old / new permits?

I know of no reason why you couldn't apply for a renewal at any time. Section 18.2-308.010 even mentions that a new permit can be issued while an existing permit remains valid.

If that's the case, I think sooner would be better than later for your efforts to get the locality to comply with state law.

Thanks for being the point man.

Virginia Code 18.2-308.010.A.2. stipulates that the "... the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received at least 90 days before but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit."
 

DrMark

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Isn't a renewal necessary and available because of an inferred expiration? and without an (pending) expiration, then a renewal is not available?
I would think it would be onerous to process 5 year permits for everyone annually, which would be an option by your reasoning.
Interesting wish...
In my experience (permit since 1991 and many renewals), a renewal is just an application when one has previously had a permit.

The language allowing for syncing expiration/renewal dates is a recent addition, with a time window specified for when it applies. Prior to that, I think no one cared when I submitted an application... late, and I'd have a period w/o an active permit; early, and I'd have a period of overlap. I always did the latter so that I'd have a permit, though too much overlap would be a "waste" of the fee.

I went and looked at my collection of old permits, and there were a couple of slight (weeks) gaps in coverage, and some instances of overlap (new permit issued with time remaining on old one).

BTW, I don't think the state considers it onerous to take my $50 to do some paperwork. I think they like taking my $50, which is one reason my efforts to push Constitutional Carry (my personal highest VA gun legislation priority) have not yet produced fruit. Cutting off an income stream is usually unpopular.
 
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DrMark

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Virginia Code 18.2-308.010.A.2. stipulates that the "... the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received at least 90 days before but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit."

Right, if you submit an application before the 180 days, they won't sync the date, and you'll have overlap.

I've had overlap before; the new syncing of dates is a nice recent addition. My former Delegate, Brenda Pogge, submitted that bill (http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2008/hb529/).
 
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