mark-in-texas
Regular Member
Can any one cite the law in Texas that specifically banned open carry? And when was it?
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When, How & Why was open carry banned in Texas??
- Thread starter mark-in-texas
- Start date
CrimsonSoul
Regular Member
Right after the civil war is when it was banned not sure on the exact law
rushcreek2
Regular Member
"Ban on open carry" is not an accurate description of the provisions of Texas law regulating handgun carry.
Historically Texas has CRIMINALIZED the carrying of a handgun on or about the person since 1872 - EXCEPT UNDER CERTAIN SPECIFIED CIRCUMSTANCES. Personally I have concluded that the Texas Legislature had some reason for not criminalizing the carry of a CONCEALED handgun rather than a handgun. My belief is that handguns, Bowie Knives, "illegal knives", and clubs were obviously CONCEALABLE - therefore it mattered not whether they were concealed one minute and in plain view the next. Obvioulsy a rifle could be concealed also, but - go figure.
You cannot understand 1870's "handgun" philosophy outside of the 1870's context.
The most important framework required is to take into account the WHEN TRAVELING EXCEPTION ( SEE SECTION 46.15). In the 1872 environment if you were not at home or on premises under your control - you were involved in the process of TRAVELING -somewhere. Any person engaged in common criminal activity such as robbing travelers, banks, trains, or hi-jacking freight was not considered to be a legitimate "traveler" - only law-abiding people were travelers. So you see there really wasn't a "handgun" problem if you were a "law-abiding" person - at least in the beginning.
Over the last 14 decades the "when traveling" exception has increasingly come under greater "scrutiny". Crooks were never extended recognition of the "when traveling" exception. Once the traveling status of one group of citizens (crooks) is deemed to be plausibly deniable, it's simply an incremental process of gradually expanding the reach of that scrutiny - like throwing a wider net. This "wider net" aimed at greater traveling scrutiny - the primary EXCEPTION to the otherwise draconian handgun ban - unfortunately has no statutory basis under Texas law, and more grievously has always been contrived, arbitrary, very selective - and ILLEGAL.
None of the statutorially excepted circumstances have ever been subject to qualifications as to concealment or (open) carry in plain view prior to the provisions enacted in 1995 for the Texas CONCEALED (ONLY) Handgun License EXCEPTION, and in 2007 for unlicensed NOT IN PLAIN VIEW carry INSIDE OF a person's vehicle. Those are the only two circumstances when a handgun must be carried concealed under current Texas law.
I make no apologies for constantly bringing up the WHEN TRAVELING exception, because if you "are carrying" anything - you are "traveling" somewhere.
The rather "exhaustive" complete list of exceptions to the criminality of carrying a handgun are available in Chapter 46 of the Texas Penal Code. Anyone contemplating carrying a handgun in Texas should be familiar with the relevant provisions of that Chapter 46. There has been extensive discussions on this Texas forum regarding the provisions of that "cord of wood" casually referred to as Texas handgun law. Like a cord of wood - it ain't perfect, but it is - what it is. Some good "pieces" - some not so good "pieces". It's just not approachable from the perspective of an "open carry ban".
Anyone not comfortable relying upon the "when traveling" provision of section 46.15 - shouldn't. The "cord of wood" is infested with perils at present. Whenever I travel I exercise considerable caution, and I constantly weigh the risk/benefit of how, when, and where I present myself armed in plain view.
Historically Texas has CRIMINALIZED the carrying of a handgun on or about the person since 1872 - EXCEPT UNDER CERTAIN SPECIFIED CIRCUMSTANCES. Personally I have concluded that the Texas Legislature had some reason for not criminalizing the carry of a CONCEALED handgun rather than a handgun. My belief is that handguns, Bowie Knives, "illegal knives", and clubs were obviously CONCEALABLE - therefore it mattered not whether they were concealed one minute and in plain view the next. Obvioulsy a rifle could be concealed also, but - go figure.
You cannot understand 1870's "handgun" philosophy outside of the 1870's context.
The most important framework required is to take into account the WHEN TRAVELING EXCEPTION ( SEE SECTION 46.15). In the 1872 environment if you were not at home or on premises under your control - you were involved in the process of TRAVELING -somewhere. Any person engaged in common criminal activity such as robbing travelers, banks, trains, or hi-jacking freight was not considered to be a legitimate "traveler" - only law-abiding people were travelers. So you see there really wasn't a "handgun" problem if you were a "law-abiding" person - at least in the beginning.
Over the last 14 decades the "when traveling" exception has increasingly come under greater "scrutiny". Crooks were never extended recognition of the "when traveling" exception. Once the traveling status of one group of citizens (crooks) is deemed to be plausibly deniable, it's simply an incremental process of gradually expanding the reach of that scrutiny - like throwing a wider net. This "wider net" aimed at greater traveling scrutiny - the primary EXCEPTION to the otherwise draconian handgun ban - unfortunately has no statutory basis under Texas law, and more grievously has always been contrived, arbitrary, very selective - and ILLEGAL.
None of the statutorially excepted circumstances have ever been subject to qualifications as to concealment or (open) carry in plain view prior to the provisions enacted in 1995 for the Texas CONCEALED (ONLY) Handgun License EXCEPTION, and in 2007 for unlicensed NOT IN PLAIN VIEW carry INSIDE OF a person's vehicle. Those are the only two circumstances when a handgun must be carried concealed under current Texas law.
I make no apologies for constantly bringing up the WHEN TRAVELING exception, because if you "are carrying" anything - you are "traveling" somewhere.
The rather "exhaustive" complete list of exceptions to the criminality of carrying a handgun are available in Chapter 46 of the Texas Penal Code. Anyone contemplating carrying a handgun in Texas should be familiar with the relevant provisions of that Chapter 46. There has been extensive discussions on this Texas forum regarding the provisions of that "cord of wood" casually referred to as Texas handgun law. Like a cord of wood - it ain't perfect, but it is - what it is. Some good "pieces" - some not so good "pieces". It's just not approachable from the perspective of an "open carry ban".
Anyone not comfortable relying upon the "when traveling" provision of section 46.15 - shouldn't. The "cord of wood" is infested with perils at present. Whenever I travel I exercise considerable caution, and I constantly weigh the risk/benefit of how, when, and where I present myself armed in plain view.
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mark-in-texas
Regular Member
Yes, I'm familiar with the 'traveling' exemption and the recent definition of it. I have a CHL, but just can't get a straight 'open carry is illegal because Law XYZ says it is.' I know some legislators in the upcoming session may bring bills to make open carry legal again, and wish them good luck and I'll be contacting my reps to push for their support.
MR Redenck
Regular Member
Here's the Facts that lead to the infringement on Texas gun rights.
The following information was taken from Texas Law Archives. I have been studing these achives to write a article about Texas Gun rights.
"The People Have Been Disarmed Throughout the State"
The elections of 1869 were characterized by massive fraud and force. Gen. Reynolds relinquished military authority to the new governor, E.J. Davis, who assumed extraordinary powers to make arrests, suspend the writ of habeas corpus, and declare martial law. Legislators who opposed his policies were arrested so that Radicals could obtain majorities to pass their bills.[141] A state police force was organized which promoted "official murder and legalized oppression."[142]
"An Act Regulating the Right to Keep and Bear Arms," approved on August 13, 1870, made it illegal for one to "have about his person a bowie-knife, dirk or butcher-knife, or fire-arms, whether known as a six-shooter, gun or pistol of any kind" at any church or religious assembly, school, ball room "or other social gathering composed of ladies and gentlemen," or election precinct.[143] The act was fairly limited, although its effect on cooks with butcher knives at social gatherings is unclear.
The far more draconian statute was passed on April 12, 1871, entitled "An Act to regulate the keeping and bearing of deadly weapons."[144] For the first time, Texas prohibited the bearing of all arms (p.658)other than rifles and shotguns at any place off of one's premises. Today's statute derives from the 1871 act passed by the Reconstruction legislature.
The 1871 disarming law and the other grievances expressed in the taxpayer convention proceedings became the basis for Democratic election campaigns. The report which outlined these grievances became one of the party platform documents.[162] When the newly enfranchised Democrats won the legislature in 1872, they repealed most of the obnoxious acts but for some reason retained the ban on bearing arms. In the 1873 elections, the Democrats defeated Governor Davis, although armed citizens had to take over the capitol when Davis tried to keep office by armed force.[163]
Under the 1876 guarantee, the legislature (but not a locality) could regulate how arms were to be worn, i.e., openly or concealed, but could not bar the wearing of weapons per se. It was intended to repeal the broad legislative power in the 1869 Constitution and in particular the unpopular 1871 act which prohibited the bearing of arms anywhere but on one's premises.[192] The 1871 act was used to disarm and oppress the people and to set up a police state.
The following information was taken from Texas Law Archives. I have been studing these achives to write a article about Texas Gun rights.
"The People Have Been Disarmed Throughout the State"
The elections of 1869 were characterized by massive fraud and force. Gen. Reynolds relinquished military authority to the new governor, E.J. Davis, who assumed extraordinary powers to make arrests, suspend the writ of habeas corpus, and declare martial law. Legislators who opposed his policies were arrested so that Radicals could obtain majorities to pass their bills.[141] A state police force was organized which promoted "official murder and legalized oppression."[142]
"An Act Regulating the Right to Keep and Bear Arms," approved on August 13, 1870, made it illegal for one to "have about his person a bowie-knife, dirk or butcher-knife, or fire-arms, whether known as a six-shooter, gun or pistol of any kind" at any church or religious assembly, school, ball room "or other social gathering composed of ladies and gentlemen," or election precinct.[143] The act was fairly limited, although its effect on cooks with butcher knives at social gatherings is unclear.
The far more draconian statute was passed on April 12, 1871, entitled "An Act to regulate the keeping and bearing of deadly weapons."[144] For the first time, Texas prohibited the bearing of all arms (p.658)other than rifles and shotguns at any place off of one's premises. Today's statute derives from the 1871 act passed by the Reconstruction legislature.
The 1871 disarming law and the other grievances expressed in the taxpayer convention proceedings became the basis for Democratic election campaigns. The report which outlined these grievances became one of the party platform documents.[162] When the newly enfranchised Democrats won the legislature in 1872, they repealed most of the obnoxious acts but for some reason retained the ban on bearing arms. In the 1873 elections, the Democrats defeated Governor Davis, although armed citizens had to take over the capitol when Davis tried to keep office by armed force.[163]
Under the 1876 guarantee, the legislature (but not a locality) could regulate how arms were to be worn, i.e., openly or concealed, but could not bar the wearing of weapons per se. It was intended to repeal the broad legislative power in the 1869 Constitution and in particular the unpopular 1871 act which prohibited the bearing of arms anywhere but on one's premises.[192] The 1871 act was used to disarm and oppress the people and to set up a police state.
MR Redenck
Regular Member
Prior to 1868, Texas first attempt to regulate the wearing of arms was only applied to Concealed Carry. CC was noted to be the choice of criminals and at that time Open Carry was accepted to be the " honest" way to carry firearms.
Ratified in 1868, the 14th amendment gave equal rights to all free men of the United States. As Governor of Texas, E.J. Davis amended the Texas Constitution to deny Freedmen the 14 amendment right.
As I have described before, Open Carry has nothing to do with public opinion, but everything to do with Rights!
Form 1868 to today, Texans are still being infringed upon by having their 2nd amendment right regulated in a manner established by E.J. Davis.
When E.J. Davis was voted out of office, Armed Texans had to remove his sorry butt from office by force. Davis armed the capital with police to attempt to stay in control.
Texas Law has some serious " dirt" that needs to be amended!
Some people think the way Texas Legislature regulates the wearing of arms " with a view to prevent crime" is acceptable, but I dont.
Texans would not have any right to carry if it were not for a lady named Suzanna Gratia Hupp. One of the best addresses to Texas Legislature I have ever seen was presented by Mrs. Hupp.
As we are all aware, Noting gets done in Texas Legislature without the suffering of people. How much longer do Texans need to suffer form crime and violence to make Legislature understand " with a view to prevent crime" has nothing to do with Honest People who have NOT COMMITTED CRIMES!
Texas Constitution;
Article 1.
Sec. 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
Ratified in 1868, the 14th amendment gave equal rights to all free men of the United States. As Governor of Texas, E.J. Davis amended the Texas Constitution to deny Freedmen the 14 amendment right.
As I have described before, Open Carry has nothing to do with public opinion, but everything to do with Rights!
Form 1868 to today, Texans are still being infringed upon by having their 2nd amendment right regulated in a manner established by E.J. Davis.
When E.J. Davis was voted out of office, Armed Texans had to remove his sorry butt from office by force. Davis armed the capital with police to attempt to stay in control.
Texas Law has some serious " dirt" that needs to be amended!
Some people think the way Texas Legislature regulates the wearing of arms " with a view to prevent crime" is acceptable, but I dont.
Texans would not have any right to carry if it were not for a lady named Suzanna Gratia Hupp. One of the best addresses to Texas Legislature I have ever seen was presented by Mrs. Hupp.
As we are all aware, Noting gets done in Texas Legislature without the suffering of people. How much longer do Texans need to suffer form crime and violence to make Legislature understand " with a view to prevent crime" has nothing to do with Honest People who have NOT COMMITTED CRIMES!
Texas Constitution;
Article 1.
Sec. 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
rushcreek2
Regular Member
Law XYZ is 46.035 (a) Intentional failure to conceal when carrying under CHL authority.
Section 46.02 (a-1) provisions regulating UNLICENSED handgun carry INSIDE of a person's vehicle do not define "traveling". Texas law has yet to establish parameters defining "when traveling", or "if traveling" because that would remove the opportunity for exercise of "discretion" otherwise known, as capricious, arbitrary, and selective application of section 46.02. The burden of proof rests upon the State to produce evidence IN A COURT ROOM that a person is not traveling. Progression pursuant to deliberate, and directional movement on a course to some geographical destination constitutes traveling.
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Another thing you can do to help is get as many people as you can to join Lone Star Citizens Defense League. We are pushing for open carry. We also need volunteers to help with their time in certain areas.
We need to contact our reps but the best thing we can do to achieve any results at all is to speak with one voice. As soon as I can, I'll be updating the website and then getting a newsletter out to the members, until then, believe me, we're working on the behalf of all Texans to restore gun rights that we lost over 130 years ago. We need voices behind us to be successful.
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KBCraig
Regular Member
Rushcreek has done a good job of explaining it, but let me try explaining it in a slightly different way:
There is no law stating "open carry is illegal". What the law in Texas says, is "carrying a handgun on or about your person" is illegal. Openly or concealed, loaded or not, having a handgun on or about your person in Texas is illegal unless you meet one of the statutory exemptions.
Having a concealed handgun and a CHL is one of those exemptions. So is being on property you own or control. As is engaging in a sporting activity (or being en route to or from it) commonly requiring use of such a handgun. So is being a peace officer, or a licensed security guard in uniform (which requires open carry).
If you are traveling, PC 46.02 does not apply, per 46.15(b)(2). None of it.
CrimsonSoul
Regular Member
You also have to look at the TABC laws where you can't carry in a convenience store because they sell alcohol for off site consumption (unlicensed possession of a weapon is illegal)
edit: or stores like Wal-Mart, anywhere alcohol is bought
edit edit: well, unlicensed is illegal to carry there that is
edit: or stores like Wal-Mart, anywhere alcohol is bought
edit edit: well, unlicensed is illegal to carry there that is
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rushcreek2
Regular Member
This is another one of the barriers to OC that would be remedied by amending Section 46.02 to read "concealed handgun" rather than "handgun".
Deleting parapragph (a) of Section 46.035 - intentional failure to conceal - would then remove the obstruction to OC with a CHL in such off- premises TABC retail locations.
I have OC'd in convenience stores in Colorado - where it is NOT illegal to do so. Ofcourse it IS ILLEGAL to commit armed robbery of a C-store. Interestingly many C-store armed robberies are committed with the weapon of choice being an index finger inside a jacket pocket. I still approached the matter with a lot of forethought as to how I would present myself . THE MANNER in which a person presents themselves walking into a C-store armed with EVEN a HOLSTERED handgun - deserves some serious consideration. I have never had a problem in Colorado. As in all circumstances HOW a person presents themselves pretty much determines how others will respond.
I just can't picture an armed robber walking into a C-store wearing a holstered handgun - I'm sorry. Anything is possible I guess. I believe the random, occasional appearance of armed CUSTOMERS would provide some deterence to the routine frequency of C-store robberies. Several years back my step-son practically bumped into an armed robber coming out of a C-store in Bedford TX - as he approached the door to go inside.
It's already illegal to commit armed robbery. It's illegal to assault another person with a deadly weapon. Location specific statutory restrictions have never prevented a determined perp from pursuing criminal acts of violence with a firearm - with the possible exception of security screened court houses, and even that can fail if a criminal gets possession of a LEO's weapon - as happened in Atlanta a few years back.
I haven't noticed any 30.06 signs posted at C-stores in Texas . Are there any ? Probably not.
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nonameisgood
Regular Member
Thanks, MR, I had heard vague recitations of some of this, but your concise Texas history was great.
As I traveled from Dallas to west Texas list week, I was quite casual with my concealment, and wore a Blackhawk Serpa, rather than my usual close fitting leather holster. I haven't yet reached the level of comfort required to "go open."
On the trip home, I may push the envelope a bit. Obviously, I have to keep in mind that I am traveling rather than carrying under the CHL where intentional failure to conceal is an issue.
Rushcreek, maybe we need to come up with a simple list of codes, such as what you outline, which should simply be repealed to fix the problem. We present this as a way to fix the gun laws through repeal, rather than creating new laws - fewer words rather than more. And educating our reps on why the laws exist as they currently do might swing a few votes our way.
As I traveled from Dallas to west Texas list week, I was quite casual with my concealment, and wore a Blackhawk Serpa, rather than my usual close fitting leather holster. I haven't yet reached the level of comfort required to "go open."
On the trip home, I may push the envelope a bit. Obviously, I have to keep in mind that I am traveling rather than carrying under the CHL where intentional failure to conceal is an issue.
Rushcreek, maybe we need to come up with a simple list of codes, such as what you outline, which should simply be repealed to fix the problem. We present this as a way to fix the gun laws through repeal, rather than creating new laws - fewer words rather than more. And educating our reps on why the laws exist as they currently do might swing a few votes our way.