What would you do...

[SaintJacque]

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EDIT: Sorry about the link, it's here http://www.vimeo.com/12623919

I came across an interesting video today and it got me thinking, what would you do if you were in the camera man's shoes and were carrying. It's pretty short, I recommend watching it.

The summary, as I saw it, was that the camera man exited the mall to return to his chained up bicycle. When he approached his bike, he caught a man cutting the chain on his bike, obviously attempting to steal it. The camera guy confronts the would-be bike thief and the thief gets verbally hostile. At one point the camera guy is surrounded by people who may be friendly to the thief and was briefly involved in a "tussle" which ended quickly and the "thug" continued threatening the camera guy. Mall "security" is present but do nothing but observe, refusing even to call 911. The thief walks away and the camera man rides off.

There's a lot of detail I missed, that's just a really brief summary, so you really need to watch the video to put yourself in the camera guy's shoes. My question is, what would you have done in his place? Would your actions be different if you were OCing versus CCing? I've really been racking my brain trying to figure out what I would have done.

In that situation, I probably would have been CCing. I often OC, but since he just exited a mall I would likely have been CCing to avoid a hassle (ironically with the same security who just did nothing while a man was repeated threatened). So, I would have to judge based on the situation whether this thief was prepared to make good on his numerous threats to "beat me up" and "kick my ass".

But, let's say he was. In this situation, do you throw fists with the guy and hope his buddies don't join in? Or do you unholster your weapon in order to establish your security more firmly? If he attacks you, are you justified in shooting? If several people attack you?

It's a real challenge to me because I don't really have any good options on the force spectrum between my fists and my gun. If he gets the better of a fight with me he could kill me, but if I take out my gun I could be charged with some weapons violation. This also goes to show just how utterly worthless mall "security" can be. One more reason never to rely on others for your defense.

So, what would you do?

 

[eye95]

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I get a "page not found" when I click the link.

 

[SaintJacque]

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Sorry about that, fixed.

 

[frommycolddeadhands]

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SaintJacque wrote:

EDIT: Sorry about the link, it's here http://www.vimeo.com/12623919

In this situation, do you throw fists with the guy and hope his buddies don't join in? Or do you unholster your weapon in order to establish your security more firmly? If he attacks you, are you justified in shooting? If several people attack you?

So, what would you do?

Ok, so some lowlife cut his bike chain. Big whoop. That's not a shooting offense. Yeah, the guy was trying to steal his bike. Yeah, the (failed) thief is a scumbag wannabe badman. The cameraman wasn't exactly the brightest bulb either, and he was looking for a confrontation and practically begging the other guy to hit him at one point. I understand him being upset about his bike lock getting clipped. He should have called the cops himself instead of assuming that the security guard had done it. In the end though, this is one of those 'not much to do' areas. If he wants to spend a few thousand dollars in legal expense to sue the guy over a bike chain, that's his choice. Calling the cops would do very little. Destruction of private property would be about the only thing that would stick. He never actually stole the bike, and even if he did it would fall into the petty theft category. It wouldn't hurt to get the paper trail started, but I suspect the cops probably would do the bare minimum, again a bike lock isn't exactly a high crime.

As far as if I were armed, I would probably be CCing at the mall, and I don't think there was sufficient cause to pull it out based on what I saw in the video. Yeah, the guy said a few "I'm gonna kick your ass" comments, but I noticed he stayed firmly planted where he was sitting. The only hint of real aggression came when the cameraman tried to keep him from leaving (dumb).

As far as you question about throwing fists, really what would the point in that be? To get your broken bicycle lock back? Not worth it to me. If you wanted to beat his ass just on the principal of the matter, I wouldn't argue with you as long as you're willing to take the assault charges that go with it, as well as any hopes of a 'self defense' argument. You can't claim self defense if you're the one starting the fight.

I believe that the camera man needs to have a serious meeting with whoever is in charge of the mall security. The idea that they won't call the cops under any circumstances- unless they actually SEE something happen- is absolutely ridiculous. They were about as useful as a screen door on a battleship. I liked the slack jawed goof that was trying to pretend nothing was happening. Great TV.

 

[skidmark]

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Based on the summary of the video, I'm not going to bother watching it. My comment is regarding the described actions of the "victim" in the situation.

Once a person engages in mutual combat they lose the protection of claiming they were acting in self defense. Thus, if the mutual combat turns into a beat-down, the "victim" either has to stand & take it or make every effort to withdraw and retreat as far as physically possible.

From the description provided by the OP, this event should have ended when the BG was confronted - the "victim" should have collected his bike, his chain and the damaged lock, and moved to a place of safety where he then called the cops. He'd have his bike and his video evidence to show them, and could also later deal with the head of mall security on the issue of when/if they will call 911 - all from a position of not being an instigator but a victim.

The presence of a handgun in the situation should not come into play.

stay safe.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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skidmark wrote:

Based on the summary of the video, I'm not going to bother watching it. My comment is regarding the described actions of the "victim" in the situation.

Once a person engages in mutual combat they lose the protection of claiming they were acting in self defense. Thus, if the mutual combat turns into a beat-down, the "victim" either has to stand & take it or make every effort to withdraw and retreat as far as physically possible.

From the description provided by the OP, this event should have ended when the BG was confronted - the "victim" should have collected his bike, his chain and the damaged lock, and moved to a place of safety where he then called the cops. He'd have his bike and his video evidence to show them, and could also later deal with the head of mall security on the issue of when/if they will call 911 - all from a position of not being an instigator but a victim.

The presence of a handgun in the situation should not come into play.

stay safe.

I agree.

I especially agree with the dismissal of the ignorant hypothetical presented as a video. A picture says a thousand words and video nonsense is 32 nonsense pictures per second - a waste of bandwidth, time and attention.

Hypotheticals are great classroom tools in classrooms where there is authority, concord and hierarchy. Otherwise, the road to hell is paved with what-ifs.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ Goddamn the Obamanation and its FOP thug unions.

 

[Kirbinator]

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In the state of Alabama, the theft would be burglary II, along with possession of burglary tools. And B II is a felony, so a citizen's arrest could be effected.

That being said, these are the kind of things that get stopped by simply pulling and ordering the perp to get on his knees.

Unfortunately, there are witnesses. If you use a firearm, you only want one story.

I'd say tazering him without warning, and cuffing him until the cops get there will probably suffice. Getting into a verbal argument is just wrong.

And three against one is outnumbered. They may be unarmed, but against a lone gunman...

 

[PrayingForWar]

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I'd say move out of the city full of parasites. When you look over the horizon one night and see it ablaze get out the long range rifle and pick off the scumbags as they leave the city they destroyed.

 

[Kirbinator]

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PrayingForWar wrote:

I'd say move out of the city full of parasites. When you look over the horizon one night and see it ablaze get out the long range rifle and pick off the scumbags as they leave the city they destroyed.

Or move to a state that has decent firearms laws and recognizes the right to open-carry.

 

[erichonda30]

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what city was this in

i would have just taken my bike and rode off

its kinda odd he had a camera and just happen to walk out when someone was stealing his bike could be a fake video

 

[GLOCK21GB]

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Me being 6'6" 300 pounds:lol::lol: I would not have said anything...I would have grabbed him in the process of cutting my lock, threw him to the ground & put the boots to him beating the living crap out of him while his home boys watched. the pistol would have remained in Holster as warning to his buddies (( stay away - don't get involved )) when the police show up, who are they going to believe ? white guy with no criminal record or Black guy thug with gold teeth & a dozen arrests ? who was attempting to steal my bike, I have cut cable as proof along with bolt cutters in his backpack.

Them security guards are as useless as boobs on a whore.

if any of this sounds racist, your way too sensitive.

 

[erichonda30]

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Glock34 wrote:

Them security guards are as useless as boobs on a whore.

dont you mean useless like tits on a bull

 

[GLOCK21GB]

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KTMRIDER wrote:

Glock34 wrote:

Them security guards are as useless as boobs on a whore.

dont you mean useless like tits on a bull

:lol: sure.