voice recorder

[sudden valley gunner]

j4l=TROLL.

I think just mislead. And seems to be on a mission on changing all OC'ers into acting how he would......probably a lifetime NRA member.....

 

[Grapeshot]

"multitude of incidences "

Multitude? Really? Cite 5 ,please. Including final outcomes of court cases.

First I did NOT state court cases specifically. Why must people misquote others or imply they said what they did not? Many "cases" never reach court because of the recordings.

While I do not intend to be drawn in to a long discourse on opinions, I will provide the outcome of some of which I am personally aware.

1) Personally stopped by local LEOs (6 officers with 5 cars) lead by a Sgt. demanding ID and my CHP for my gun. The RAS WAS OCing and that both a permit and ID were subject to demand. It didn't happen - I walked away with pictures and audio recording. Following my complaint the Sgt. was 1st moved to a desk job then later because of her file jacket was give the opportunity to resign - she did.

2) State Republican Convention at Richmond Coliseum where certain members as Sgt. of Arms OCd but were told we could not enter, but did while recording. Both the building and the venue were open to the public - the "rule" strangely disappeared and huge numbers of VCDL members and Va OCers attended the convention carrying when they results were posted.

3) Glenn Beck show in Richmond - half a dozen OCers where passing out info when approached by local PD in mass and management agent and told we were on private property and could not enter with guns. This was a management agent decision on public property and not at the request of the venue. We were recording and filming because an independent media rep wanted material for a documentary. Worked out well.

We did not stop passing out info, did enter OCing w/o incident and the sign saying "No Weapons" was changed.

4) We have The Tony's Five incident in Va - you may google it.
Family oriented group peacefully eating with restaurant owners full knowledge and acceptance.

5) There is the presently referred to case below in my signature line which will in part be decided on recordings having been destroyed by those responsible for preserving them - now there is a switch.

6) Rather than do all of your work for you - you may search various state forums here - I suggest PA, WA, VA, OR, NV and LA. In the words of a friend of mine, you could hit 4 or 5 by swinging a dead cat in any of those.

I must be one of those boneheads, dolts, idiots, half-a$$es, clowns or jerkies to which you refer because I always carry a running recorder. Not because I want trouble , but because when it does happen it is generally without warning.

I don't always carry the recorder unseen. If I stop to eat by myself, I sometimes lay the recorder on the table with the red light flashing right in front of my food. It has so far guaranteed an opportunity to eat and run when I have wanted to do so uninterrupted.

My concern by certain references to individuals is that you are not talking about the problem but rather your subjective opinion of the person - name calling. I think your goals would be better represented w/o such character representations.

 

[MR Redenck]

Your mouth is getting pretty offensive! Can you not carry on a conversation without name calling? You attitude is not helping you at all.
I dont remember saying anything about a court case! If your court wont allow audio recording, thats your problem.
The audio recordings do a whole lot more than you think. Look at the media coverage the kid in Philly got. Even if the audio recording isnt allow in his court system, the media has made the public aware of the "police" problem.
"Another word for the public is Constituent"!!!
The bests result of audio recordings is the fact that the "Public" will become aware!
Best of luck to ya, im done arguing your crap!

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Kshmedeka had a case in Washington court thrown out when he presented the recording of an incident in court, that contrasted the officers sworn reports and testimony. (I don't believe it was OC related though).

Flora vs. Washington is one that shows recording police in their job is not illegal and helped this person in his case. (not OC related)

In Washington Forum TomBrewsters recording of the police harrassing him for nearly in hr.because of his refusal to show ID, helped in educating and training the officer in how to handle 4A in public places. They were demanding to see ID because of his OC.

 

[MR Redenck]

Way to go Grapeshot. You sir impress me often.

 

[j4l]

Your mouth is getting pretty offensive! Can you not carry on a conversation without name calling? You attitude is not helping you at all.
I dont remember saying anything about a court case! If your court wont allow audio recording, thats your problem.
The audio recordings do a whole lot more than you think. Look at the media coverage the kid in Philly got. Even if the audio recording isnt allow in his court system, the media has made the public aware of the "police" problem.
"Another word for the public is Constituent"!!!
The bests result of audio recordings is the fact that the "Public" will become aware!
Best of luck to ya, im done arguing your crap!

Np. Touchy-feely time.
As politely as I can possibly type it.
PLEASE re-read the preceding posts on which you comment. Digest the post, before replying to it in angst.
Among the same "public" who see these things, also use it as prime examples of our folks sometimes being "gun nuts". That media you want to coddle now, is usually as much our enemy as anyone. Care should be taken in send messages via them-as they are normally more than willing to manipulate such things against us.
Case in point being the Sheriff's Association's use of exactly these kind of recordings, to say "see what we mean?" Thus,helping to kill off our chances at OC here.

 

[j4l]

Could you please provide some reference to the specific incidents you seem to be alluding to? It's difficult to sort out the behavior of the "dolts" and "boneheads" from the behavior of the rest of the folks who OC when we have no real idea of what you mean by "dolt" or "bonehead" behavior.

What is "showboating" and if you would be kind enough please lead this not-as-bright-as-you-apparently-are person to an example or two. The same goes for "publicity stunts" and "provocations".

Let me give you an idea of what I think you are referring to - you can then tell me if I'm close to on-target or not. In Michigan at the CADL someone was accused of "blatantly thrusting his holstered firearm towards" some other person. While I'm not sure if the provocativeness of that would be more sexually provocative than anything else, it does read as if some boneheaded dolt was showboating in order to create a provocative situation in order to generate publicity. I refer to the journalismist/reportologist who wrote that description, as opposed to the person OCing at the Library.

Hoping to read some actual descriptions of actual behavior that you are actually referring to, I await your response.

stay safe.

Sure thing. I point you to the front page of almost every section of these forums with such clips linked. Take your pick.

Actuallly, strike that. Disreagard. I lack the time at the moment,but how many links would you like, and where would you like them from when I have time to sit down to it?There is no shortage of them, believe me.

 

[j4l]

Way to go Grapeshot. You sir impress me often.

Dont get too excited. He didnt demonstrate anything that could be verified in any way, apart from one link.

 

[Grapeshot]

Dont get too excited. He didnt demonstrate anything that could be verified in any way, apart from one link.

I said I wasn't going to be drawn into a long discourse on the matter and I'm not.

They're all there to be easily found on the net - but that is not and was not my primary objection.

It is to the characterization of others in a negative light and in derogatory terms because they carry a recording device - a legal activity. Regardless we are cautioned against such by our rules here. Surely you do not think you are above the rules.

• (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks .................

 

[j4l]

I said I wasn't going to be drawn into a long discourse on the matter and I'm not.

They're all there to be easily found on the net - but that is not and was not my primary objection.

It is to the characterization of others in a negative light and in derogatory terms because they carry a recording device - a legal activity. Regardless we are cautioned against such by our rules here. Surely you do not think you are above the rules.

• (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks .................

If it ever gets personal, believe me you'll be the 1st to know. Until then, man up, ***********, we arent here for group hugs.
And no one was criticized for carrying recorders (where legal to do so) they were criticized for giving in to the temptation to perform for those recorders.

--Moderator Edited--

 

[j4l]

In the meantime,good night for now,******. It's been most entertaining forcing folks to engage their brain-housing units for a change.
Stock up on those Kleenex,until I next return.

--Moderator Edited--

 

[marshaul]

j4l=TROLL.

I think just mislead. And seems to be on a mission on changing all OC'ers into acting how he would......probably a lifetime NRA member.....

No, you're both mistaken.

He has "operated under the restrictions imposed" by the PATRIOT Act. :uhoh:

Apparently he saves my butt all the time. :lol:

--Moderator Edited--

Aw, too bad you didn't ban the troll. All this making us engage our skulls is giving me a headache! :banghead:

 

[eye95]

My first encounter with a LEO resulted in a two-hour detention. I did not have a recorder. I immediately bought one and decided to carry and use it.

I left the house one day without it. For a few blocks, I debated whether to go back and get it. Caution won out. Good thing, cuz I was stopped for a second time. I told the cops that I was recording the encounter. Within five minutes, I was free to go.

As GS said, we don't always have to go to court for the recording to be of benefit.

Oh, and j4l, you are being quite uncivil with the name-calling. Personally, I think GS has been quite patient with you (he usually is). Personally, I'd've used whatever authority I had to shut you down until the admins could make a final decision--hopefully a permanent one.

You might want to take a step back while you still have the ability to express your POV here.

 

[Aknazer]

From where do you make the assumption-once again since the intial contact is almost always missing from the vids/audio of these stunts-that the person was "minding their own" or acting normally?
And should the officers care? Probably not, but since you know going into to it that they do,you are provoking them by doing so.Agitating them further-right or wrong- and escalating things to levels they dont need to go to. It changes the entire dynamic to one that is confrontational from the get-go. Is it "right" no,but you having a tantrum about it on video or audio isnt going to change that at that moment.

By this logic the cops are provoking it by knowing that we're likely recording and making the stop anyways. And how about the cops quit having tantrums on cam/recorders? And why do you think think the beginning is generally missing? Likely because they don't start recording until after the cops show up. But I guess you will tell me that recording at all is baiting.

And in any event, there are methods in place to deal with "unlawful" arrest/detain. If this happens as often as people claim, and if folks make use of those methods for retribution in the courts afterwards, perhaps dept.s would start to come around. But do we see this happening much? No. Who's fault is that? the clown from the stunt, that's who.

You mean it's the person's fault for not having enough money to bring a case against the cops, especially when the cops will likely be able to claim "qualified immunity." Even the current Philly case almost didn't go to court due to the cost both in terms of money and time. And then once in court if you don't have an audio/video recorder then it's just your word vs theirs, and even if you do have one you have several other hurdles to get past (qualified immunity, RAS, "officer safety," etc) for your case to be effective. Litigation isn't anywhere near as easy as you make it out to be.

But all this aside. How about yet another tactic-one pre-emptive,rather than reactionary and confrontational on the streets? Most, if not all, major PD's and Sheriff's offices in this country now have civillian review boards and/or advisory councils.
Most,if not all are free to join. Join em. Go to the meetings. Bring these kinds of issues up. Work -through that venue-with thier chiefs/cpt.s etc to "educate" these officers, and to see to it that the dept.s are passing this info (being lawful to OC there,in this case) and try to get them to see the need to modify their responses to these issues.
Coming at it from that direction, you may well be surprised how open they are to that approach.
Any harm to giving it a shot? Has anyone here even remotely attempted to do so?

There's no harm in trying that, but that doesn't mean that people MUST/ONLY do it that way. And I hope for your sake that if FL gets OC you don't OC right off the bat. Because chances are those first to OC are going to meet the most resistance from LEOs while also working to educate the public and not having a recorder is just asking for next to no recourse should your rights get violated. And chances are there will be people who will have their rights violated at the start while certain police (but by no means all of them) try to bully people into not OCing.

Oh and it is certain cops who have perpetuated the "us vs them" mentality with their views that only officers should be able to carry a weapon in public. Hell I even had a cop tell me that he didn't think I should be able to carry in public even though I've done the military qualification on the 9mm multiple times and been to multiple Security Forces training events regarding the use of deadly force. He didn't care because I wasn't a cop.

 

[j4l]

There's no harm in trying that, but that doesn't mean that people MUST/ONLY do it that way. And I hope for your sake that if FL gets OC you don't OC right off the bat. Because chances are those first to OC are going to meet the most resistance from LEOs while also working to educate the public and not having a recorder is just asking for next to no recourse should your rights get violated. And chances are there will be people who will have their rights violated at the start while certain police (but by no means all of them) try to bully people into not OCing.

Oh and it is certain cops who have perpetuated the "us vs them" mentality with their views that only officers should be able to carry a weapon in public. Hell I even had a cop tell me that he didn't think I should be able to carry in public even though I've done the military qualification on the 9mm multiple times and been to multiple Security Forces training events regarding the use of deadly force. He didn't care because I wasn't a cop.

The only way? No never said anything of the sort-just to apply some common sense to the publicity stunts,and try to avoid giving the antis any more ammo to use against us than these folks already are.
And no, on the LEOs. Ive discussed it at length with most of the ones I know from my sector-nearly all were in favor of OC and had no intention of harrassing anyone-just for OC'ing.
As for recorders-in my State, under it's statutes, it is illegal-without the express consent of both parties. Ref. the case (non-oc related,but same crime) in Leon County that's about to begin soon. Woman in that case is set to be crucified for covertly recording a county official in his office. She is attempting to use the "public official/official capacity/no privacy" nonsense we hear in here all the time. For some odd reason she cant seem to find an atty who will touch her with a 10 ft pole...

 

[j4l]

My first encounter with a LEO resulted in a two-hour detention. I did not have a recorder. I immediately bought one and decided to carry and use it.

I left the house one day without it. For a few blocks, I debated whether to go back and get it. Caution won out. Good thing, cuz I was stopped for a second time. I told the cops that I was recording the encounter. Within five minutes, I was free to go.

As GS said, we don't always have to go to court for the recording to be of benefit.

Oh, and j4l, you are being quite uncivil with the name-calling. Personally, I think GS has been quite patient with you (he usually is). Personally, I'd've used whatever authority I had to shut you down until the admins could make a final decision--hopefully a permanent one.

You might want to take a step back while you still have the ability to express your POV here.

..........--Moderator Position--
The edits of posts containing insults and/or name calling begins.
I repeat myself when I suggest you talk about the problem, not the people with whom you disagree.

 

[Grapeshot]

The only way? No never said anything of the sort-just to apply some common sense to the publicity stunts,and try to avoid giving the antis any more ammo to use against us than these folks already are.
And no, on the LEOs. Ive discussed it at length with most of the ones I know from my sector-nearly all were in favor of OC and had no intention of harrassing anyone-just for OC'ing.
As for recorders-in my State, under it's statutes, it is illegal-without the express consent of both parties. Ref. the case (non-oc related,but same crime) in Leon County that's about to begin soon. Woman in that case is set to be crucified for covertly recording a county official in his office. She is attempting to use the "public official/official capacity/no privacy" nonsense we hear in here all the time. For some odd reason she cant seem to find an atty who will touch her with a 10 ft pole...

Now there is a Red Herring if I ever saw one. The Leon County reference is about a lady recording in an official's private office where he had a reasonable expectation of privacy - he was not out in public.

Under the statute, consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication. See definition of “oral communication,” Fla. Stat. ch. 934.02. See also Stevenson v. State, 667 So.2d 410 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 1996); Paredes v. State, 760 So.2d 167 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2000).
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Now there is a Red Herring if I ever saw one. The Leon County reference is about a lady recording in an official's private office where he had a reasonable expectation of privacy - he was not out in public.

Under the statute, consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication. See definition of “oral communication,” Fla. Stat. ch. 934.02. See also Stevenson v. State, 667 So.2d 410 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 1996); Paredes v. State, 760 So.2d 167 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2000).
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

So even her recording may be admissible. If the officer had no expectation of what he was saying to her wasn't to be repeated. Don't know the specifics of this case or how Forida rules, but there has been some rulings in Washington.

Interesting again if the officers have done nothing wrong, why wouldn't they want to go to court with her recording as evidence? Makes me wonder what they have to hide?

 

[carry for myself]

i use my HTC android G2 with cop recorder 2. second you start recording it hides the recorder itself. and your phone looks like like a phone, they have no idea your recording them so they "shutting off" your recorder is no longer an issue.

used to have a cobra recorder with a USB connected to my laptop in my bag, officer walked up. i hit record. he removed the recorder? automatically saved it to the computer ;-)

 

[bajadudes]

Can we please make an effort to keep this thread on topic.

I use a Sony PX820 and like it very much