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Using deadly force when confronted with a "Forcible Felony"

Esanders2008

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
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576
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
So I was doing some research and came across something that bothers me. Apparently VA does not allow the use of lethal force unless one believes he is in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury. Even in one's own home, one can not use LF against an intruder unless he believes he personally is at risk. VA also does not recognize "presumed fear" of an intruder being in your home. Does this mean that if someone enters my home in the middle of the night, unarmed, and begins taking my tv out the door, that I can not defend my home?

Also, this seems to apply to being held up for my wallet without being held at gun- or knife-point, or even a carjacking under the same circumstance.

In case anyone was wondering, here is the link that sparked my curiosity:
http://rvanews.com/news/florida-vs-virginia-comparing-self-defense-laws/58745

-Eddy
 

Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
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Jul 5, 2006
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1,215
Location
Accomac, Virginia, USA
So I was doing some research and came across something that bothers me. Apparently VA does not allow the use of lethal force unless one believes he is in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury. Even in one's own home, one can not use LF against an intruder unless he believes he personally is at risk. VA also does not recognize "presumed fear" of an intruder being in your home. Does this mean that if someone enters my home in the middle of the night, unarmed, and begins taking my tv out the door, that I can not defend my home?

Also, this seems to apply to being held up for my wallet without being held at gun- or knife-point, or even a carjacking under the same circumstance.

In case anyone was wondering, here is the link that sparked my curiosity:
http://rvanews.com/news/florida-vs-virginia-comparing-self-defense-laws/58745

-Eddy

IANAL but as I recall from previous discussions you cannot use lethal force to protect property. The TV is walking out the door you have to let it go. I'm sure user will chime in when he has time.
 

ProShooter

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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
Apparently VA does not allow the use of lethal force unless one believes he is in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury.

Yep. It must be an immediate threat of death, or serious bodily injury to yourself, or an innocent third party.

Does this mean that if someone enters my home in the middle of the night, unarmed, and begins taking my tv out the door, that I can not defend my home?

You cannot use deadly force to protect "property".


One of the most important things someone needs to know when carrying, is when they are allowed to use deadly force.
 
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Tanner

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May 10, 2012
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474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
I feel like they are ignoring that fact that people can and offten do seriously hurt and or kill people with nothing but their bare hands. This all goes without saying that if im carrying a firearm and someone began to struggle with me over my wallet I can not assume that he/she wont try to take my weapon.

Also I would ask if you have the right to try to stop them from taking the tv. My guess is that you do. If then a physical altercarion follows, one may be authorized to use deadly force. I would argue that the "which means that you cannot instigate behavior that would ultimately require you to defend yourself." statement would be iffy at best. I guess it comes down to weather or not you have the right to try and stop people from stealing from you.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
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Numenor

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Aug 20, 2012
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Location
Richmond, VA
I believe this is why it's VERY important to be careful what you say to police. You need to be able to articulate that you felt fear for yourself/others, telling a cop "I shot this guy who broke into my house" does not do that.
 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
Its retarded of course. Napoleonic code on my land....I have told my local cops this and they said "what's that?" .. I told them, if you don't know then you do not want to find out the hard way.

I would work to change that stupid law.

Now if kids are getting their frisbee that flew onto my land then I let them get it of course. Napoleon liked to play frisbee.

Recommend if you shoot someone in your house not to talk to the cops ... save it for court; looks like in VA, you'll be having a trial anyway.

Commie law.
 

peter nap

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Oct 16, 2007
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Valhalla
Well I would assume an immediate threat to myself, except VA doesn't allow a presumed fear.

According to some people, making faces is sufficient proof of the intent to do grievous bodily harm.:banana:

wayne-face.jpg



Shooting someone is pretty serious Eddy.
 

Esanders2008

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
576
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
I feel like they are ignoring that fact that people can and offten do seriously hurt and or kill people with nothing but their bare hands. This all goes without saying that if im carrying a firearm and someone began to struggle with me over my wallet I can not assume that he/she wont try to take my weapon.

That is very true. During my time in the Navy, I once threw a 220 lb man across a room before he could "shoot" me with his training gun. For reference I am 6'0" 140 lbs.

But here is a scenario:

I wake up to my front door being opened by force, proceed to my living room and see an intruder carrying my TV. If I draw on him, and tell him to stop, and he begins to advance toward me, can I deploy lethal force then? Or did I "instigate" the conflict?

:banghead: This is so confusing.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
Messages
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Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
IANAL but as I recall from previous discussions you cannot use lethal force to protect property. The TV is walking out the door you have to let it go. I'm sure user will chime in when he has time.

You can in Texas. (Texas penal code 9.42) if the thief is fleeing and stopping him by less then lethal means would expose you to undue risk to recover your property.

Evidentially people have used deadly force against thieves and not been charged

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...fiable-homicides-rise-with-Castle-3676412.php

However, I am aware of no other state that allows deadly force to recover property, although I've heard that if you see the person steal your property you can legally citizens arrest them in WA, and technically if the citizens arrest is valid you're not committing unlawful imprisonment or assault, so if they try to resist your CA with force then you may be justified. But I wouldn't risk it. I'm not aware of that philosophy ever being tried
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Do not shoot someone in the back, that is it simply. You can still try to stop a person from stealing your tv, or your wallet. The law does not say you have to help them rob you, just you cannot used deadly force to protect property. Police in most states are allowed to use deadly force for a felon fleeing a forcible felony. Not sure about VA.
 

peter nap

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Oct 16, 2007
Messages
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Valhalla
That is very true. During my time in the Navy, I once threw a 220 lb man across a room before he could "shoot" me with his training gun. For reference I am 6'0" 140 lbs.

But here is a scenario:

I wake up to my front door being opened by force, proceed to my living room and see an intruder carrying my TV. If I draw on him, and tell him to stop, and he begins to advance toward me, can I deploy lethal force then? Or did I "instigate" the conflict?

:banghead: This is so confusing.

This is a pretty deep subject Eddy. Dan Hawes has written a good deal about it nd conducts use of force seminars.

You might do well to research that as much as possible then come up with scenarios.
 

Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
That is very true. During my time in the Navy, I once threw a 220 lb man across a room before he could "shoot" me with his training gun. For reference I am 6'0" 140 lbs.

But here is a scenario:

I wake up to my front door being opened by force, proceed to my living room and see an intruder carrying my TV. If I draw on him, and tell him to stop, and he begins to advance toward me, can I deploy lethal force then? Or did I "instigate" the conflict?

:banghead: This is so confusing.

I guess the small details would matter. Did he put down the tv? did he draw somekind of weapon? Maby he was going to throw the tv at you... In my opinion the situation was instigated by the guy breaking into your house and taking your tv. Again it all comes down to weather or not we are allowed to physicaly stop them in a non lethal way. Obviously once you try to stop them they will either run or stay to fight. At this point I would say you have the right to protect yourself and are justified in useing lethal force. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. Just sharing my thoughts here.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Its retarded of course. Napoleonic code on my land....I have told my local cops this and they said "what's that?" .. I told them, if you don't know then you do not want to find out the hard way.

I would work to change that stupid law.

Now if kids are getting their frisbee that flew onto my land then I let them get it of course. Napoleon liked to play frisbee.

Recommend if you shoot someone in your house not to talk to the cops ... save it for court; looks like in VA, you'll be having a trial anyway.

Commie law.


Bad idea, shots fired call, man laying in pool of blood, man with gun says "I want my lawyer" the LAC will definitely go to jail in that set of circumstances. And the jury detectives and DAs will base their decisions off that initial officers report. You need to give them enough info to establish yourself as the victim complainant. The hour long video with the fast talking lawyer saying never talk to police has obviously not been posted with self defense in mind. Your defense involves admitting to committing a homicide, you need to provide basic information to the initial officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4

This is a better idea
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I understand the context of your statement. But cut and dry "don't shoot someone in the back" is not necessarily always advisable.

Well all we have to do is take a look at Zimmerman. He did not shoot in the back, IMO was clearly justified, the law backs him up in that state. And he is still on trial for murder. One of the things most of us, if not all of us understand is we are going to probably be put through the ringer if we use deadly force. The courts rule mostly across the states that the suspect must be a danger to others to shoot them fleeing, instead of just shooting them for felonies, it must be a forcible felony; murder, aggravated battery, armed robbery, rape, and so on. Crimes of physical violence that cause serious injury or death. Even if justified a lengthy trial will be more expensive than even a expensive tv.
 

Tanner

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
474
Location
Chesterfield, Virginia, United States
Bad idea, shots fired call, man laying in pool of blood, man with gun says "I want my lawyer" the LAC will definitely go to jail in that set of circumstances. And the jury detectives and DAs will base their decisions off that initial officers report. You need to give them enough info to establish yourself as the victim complainant. The hour long video with the fast talking lawyer saying never talk to police has obviously not been posted with self defense in mind. Your defense involves admitting to committing a homicide, you need to provide basic information to the initial officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4

This is a better idea

Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law...........AGAINST. My thoughts are that you may not be in the perfect state of mind to comment on what happend. After all you were just forced to kill someone. Unless you are chuck norris I can imagine that this would bother you. Its better to be safe than sorry. Talking to the police in most (some would say in all) situations talking to the police will cause you more harm than good.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law...........AGAINST. My thoughts are that you may not be in the perfect state of mind to comment on what happend. After all you were just forced to kill someone. Unless you are chuck norris I can imagine that this would bother you. Its better to be safe than sorry. Talking to the police in most (some would say in all) situations talking to the police will cause you more harm than good.

Agreed, go to the hospital get your heart checked out, and wait for the attorney there.
 
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