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Transporting through NY (Need an LEO Opinion)

Makarov

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
227
Location
Dayton, Ohio, USA
Interstate Roads are Controlled by the Federal Goverment

Interstate roads are controlled by federal dollars. The state enforces the traffic laws only, the road is manintained by the federal goverment, thus it is federal property and is subject to the Interstate Commerce Act of 2002. Gee I wonder if they arrest cops from other states carring concealed...Not...they are the boys in blue. Thats why police powers should be diminished.

Drive through as planned, with the firearm exactly in accordance with federal law. Make sure to film the entire process of packing your car for the trip. Leave this film at home.

Speed the entire way.

If you get pulled over make sure you are filming and explain that you have a firearm in the trunk being carried in accordance with federal regulation.

Get arrested and have the gun confiscated.

Sue.

Profit.
 
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KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
Interstate roads are controlled by federal dollars. The state enforces the traffic laws only, the road is manintained by the federal goverment, thus it is federal property...
Incorrect on all counts, with partial credit for federal funding being used to control state decisions.

Interstate highways are not federal property. The federal government does not maintain roads.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
And, along the same lines of erroneous thinking, then FOPA, 18 USC 926A, would not apply to anyone unless they were on a "Federal" interstate highway.
Not related, and non sequitur.

If you have a link between the two, or an explanation that FOPA-86 only applies to interstate highways, please explain.
 

GhostOfJefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
137
Location
Lewis Center, OH
Uhhhh...I believe Ohio is one...you would have to browse handgunlaw.us

Only if you're a CHL holder and you're *carrying* the firearm as a concealed handgun, meaning, on your person or loaded and in a container like your glovebox. If you're disassembled or cased and in accordance with federal firearm *transportation* laws, then no, you have no need to legally notify whatsoever.

Ohio citizen, raised and true, and CHL holder, as well as frequent OC'er.
 

Torontogunguy

New member
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Ontario/Florida/etc.
First and foremost.. The Police are NOT your friend! They don't want to be your friend, they don't want you to be their friend.

Depending upon the circumstances, the Police can (and in a number of cases will), LIE to you and NOT be accountable for it.. whereas if you lie to them.. it can be used against you.

You get pulled over and the cop asks you.. "Do you mind if I look in your vehicle?" That is a very straightforward question. If you say "yes" you're saying "yes, I mind".. and if you say "no" you're saying "no, I do mind".

But watch out and listen for the "negative connotation" asked question. Same scenario as above but the Cop asks..

"You don't mind if I look in your vehicle do you?"

Think about the question that was just asked.

If you say "yes".. you are now saying "yes, I don't mind"! and if you say "no" you are also saying "no, I don't mind"!

Either way you've just given permission to do so to the Cop.

FireStar M40


REMEMBER! The police are NOT your friends despite being raised to go to the nearest police officer if in trouble, etc. THEY have a job to do. Simple as that.

Use full sentence answers to any questions asked. "Mind if we search your vehicle?" - response is not "yes" or "no" but a statement, such as "I definitely mind if you search my vehicle and do not give permission for such a search". Period. Questions being asked? Answer nothing except what you are legally obliged to provide; if you are transporting firearms I would surely not state that, but I WOULD state that I am on my way from POINT X to POINT Y - AM I FREE TO GO NOW? WE WOULD LIKE TO GET THERE BEFORE DARK OR WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE ON OUR WAY.

We drive a Ford Flex, a crossover that looks like an SUV and has not trunk. In the rear are located TWO combination safes. One safe is used for the storage of handgun(s) and the other safe is used for the storage of unloaded magazines (10 rounders) and ammunition. In NYS we would now be transporting our Glock 36's with 7 rounders until the SAFE Act gets squared away. The safes are relatively small and are generally covered with some luggage, laptops, tools, whatever. If asked, we would NOT provide the combination to open them without a warrant. We have nothing to hide and would simply state that we are getting an uneasy feeling about this, ask what is being looked for and then ask again if we are under arrest or if we are free to carry on and leave. NEVER consent to a search. NEVER provide more information than required to by law.

We carry a binder with copies of all of our permits, registrations, state and federal laws,a list of various IPSC/IDPA and GSSF competitions on our route (we just might drop in on a few enroute).

Our issues are multiplied.... we also have the issue of living in Canada. So when we cross into the USA it is almost always at Niagara Falls, NY or Fort Erie/Buffalo, NY. You MUST declare that your are transporting handguns and ammo when crossing and we always do, handing over our carry permits (not NYS) with our Passports. My Passport is a US Passport. We also have been vetted through the Nexus system and interviewed by border folks to get same. AND THE GUNS ARE LOCKED UP SEPERATELY FROM THE AMMO. We have only ever been stopped for inspection one time and when we opened the rear gate and the border folks saw the safes, the handgun permits were good enough and we were waved through. Have never been stopped in NYS excepting at the border crossing every time we cross, of course, and in either direction.

MY PERSONAL intentions are to continue what I have been doing, continue to carry all my documentation and copies of FOPA and related court information, etc., along with information on any matches that might be going on in PA for instance. I have even taken to obtaining a cheap hunting license on line (now expired) for about $20 and carrying that as well. And I keep TWO copies of those binders with me in case a LEO should want one for reference.

Last but not least, we ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep the voice recorder in our cellphone going during any 'critical' situations. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, we keep the cellphone locked!!! If the cellphone is not locked it is easy enough for LEO or anyone to extract everything from voice recordings to phone number lists (which always includes a top notch firearms attorney available 24/7).

If you do run into trouble with regards to FOPA you need to know that there are states that simply consider FOPA as affirmative defense material; your charges will get tossed but not before your trip is delay, ruined and so on. And the legal bills are huge. Don't speed and make sure that all of your lights are working. We choose to drive a vehicle with an automatic sensor system that tells us if anything has gone wrong.

Having had an attempted carjacking in Orlando, Florida as well as an attempted home invasion in Toronto, Ontario - I can tell you that I will not stop in ANY state which does not afford me the right to protect myself and my family when stateside. In Canada we have no concealed carry - and safe storage laws are strict in our home, but we use common sense, adhere to the law and maintain the highest level of protection we are able. I can see no reason that I would want to stop for ANY reason in a state which does not permit me to protect myself and my loved ones. Period.

I would love to see or get a copy of that letter being talked about from one of the NYSP barracks.
 
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optiksguy

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
69
Location
Town of Herndon, VA
Questions being asked? Answer nothing except what you are legally obliged to provide; if you are transporting firearms I would surely not state that, but I WOULD state that I am on my way from POINT X to POINT Y - AM I FREE TO GO NOW? WE WOULD LIKE TO GET THERE BEFORE DARK OR WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE ON OUR WAY.

Why would you provide that extra information when you are not legally obligated to do so? Why not just stick to 'Am I free to go?' or 'Why am I being detained?' ?
 

va_tazdad

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
1,162
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
My question is

Why would you ask a LEO?????? Most have not a clue what the law is.

Easier to research and contact a lawyer than trust a LEO, especially from New York!
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
The OP is asking for a LEO opinion but he already got one .... well, I would guess than a LEO may arrest him for traveling through his state without the proper travel papers having been issued by bloomy ...
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Officer~"Do you have any weapons?"

Citizen~"Am I free to go?"

Officer~"No, do you have any weapons?"

Citizen~"Am I being detained?"

Officer~"Yes, do you have any weapons?"

Citizen~"I have no statements, cite me, or let me go."

This is assuming the officer has already told you what the reason for stop is. Don't give any excuses, argue the constitution, just refuse to give any statements. If the issue is pushed further, demand a lawyer. The word every cop hates to hear, it means conversation over, completely over.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
OP please read....

Ok, there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned here.... or maybe it was and I skipped over it....

some jurisdictions are under the impression only the guns themselves are protected under FOPA and not accessories. so don't get caught with evil hi-capacity magazines, for CYA purposes, you should probably ship your magazines to your new place or set up a post office box big enough for them near where you intend to buy/rent if you don't have a place yet. don't carry the evil hi-cap mags. well or you can and just wager it's unlikely you'll be caught and tried. still to be safer i'd take care of the mags without driving them through slave states.
 

CT Barfly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
328
Location
Ffld co.
The notion that a Federal statute which is clearly intended to preempt State laws to the contrary is nothing more than an affirmative defense is pure horses--t.
 

RK3369

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
92
Location
South Carolina
all this NY BS..............

is part of the reason I left there 5 years ago. It's become another "empire" for King Cuomo, just like Washington is for King Obama.
 

CT Barfly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
328
Location
Ffld co.
Drive through as planned, with the firearm exactly in accordance with federal law. Make sure to film the entire process of packing your car for the trip. Leave this film at home.

Speed the entire way.

If you get pulled over make sure you are filming and explain that you have a firearm in the trunk being carried in accordance with federal regulation.

Get arrested and have the gun confiscated.

Sue.

Profit.

Why not obtain written confirmation of the State Police's "advice" and sue on that?
 

CT Barfly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
328
Location
Ffld co.
I beg to differ. FOPA reads:
FOPA is based upon the principle that an article/person which is engaged in interstate commerce (legally synonymous with transportation) falls under the control of the Federal government FIRST, and the state the article/person is presently located in SECOND. The phrase, "Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or any regulation of a state" means that state laws, rules, and regulations are null, void and unenforceable. FOPA does NOT provide an EXCEPTION to such laws. FOPA instead NULLIFIES such laws.

The phrase "shall be entitled to" means: "1. Give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something." FOPA firmly establishes that a RIGHT does legally exist for the interstate transportation of firearms.

An arrest for the possession of a firearm being transported in accordance with FOPA using a state law as the basis for the arrest is an illegal act, violating the 4th amendment of the US Constitution. It is illegal and a violation of the 4th amendment for a LEO to arrest a person with no reasonable suspicion that a crime is committed. Since FOPA negates and nullifies state laws, the LEO would have to have reasonable suspicion that the requirements of FOPA were being violated, not state law.

mostly right.

except...the LEO would have to have PROBABLE CAUSE to believe the requirements of FOPA were being violated.

if you're driving a vehicle with out of state tags, present an out of state DL (presuming you've been stopped for a traffic violation)...and exercise your 5A rights...there is no way there can be PC (or even reasonable suspicion) that you are in violation of FOPA...unless the officer sees something or you or your passenger admit that there is a gun present.

if you choose to disclose that you are transporting under FOPA...you'd better be able to show that your origin and destination are legal for POSSESS AND CARRY. the mere possibility in the officer's mind that "XYZ state doesn't recognize your permit" or "you might be staying in NY state" or "YOU STARTED YOUR JOURNEY IN NY STATE" does not amount to probable cause for arrest until it is admitted by you or otherwise verified (perhaps your passenger tells a different story). keep in mind that your electronic toll pass may reveal your journey if they decide to try and go that route...may be weeks/months later but a warrant may still issue.

remember...the statute states that "POSSESS AND CARRY" are required elements for your origin AND destination "places". "Places" doesn't seem to be defined...but it seems to me that "home" is a "place" even though the state your home is in may not permit you to carry. you'd still be covered.

as you can see...if you disclose the presence of a firearm during a routine traffic stop, you are asking for BIG trouble in NY. the climate in NY is such that no NY judge is going to call it "unreasonable" to assume you're in violation of FOPA in order to insulate police from wrongful arrest liability...even if all they had was an unreasonable hunch.

if you're going to disclose, ALWAYS travel with a way to verify your origin/destination and license status at both ends of the trip (hotel reservations, gas receipts, restaurant receipts, licenses, firearms reciprocity agreements, and statutes for both states/places etc.) That last bit you can keep locked up with the firearms since you won't need it until things are really bad.

All you need to establish that you are in compliance are:

1. lawful to possess and carry at start
2. lawful to possess and carry at destination
3. locked up, unloaded and out of reach (NOT glovebox or center console)

nothing more...nothing less. people say things like "disassembled" and "ammo separate" and quite frankly if the legislature wanted to put those words in, they would have. they didn't.

keep in mind that NY may consider simply being in possession of firearm and ammo in the same place to be "loaded"...nevertheless...FOPA is clear that it controls "notwithstanding" local laws. i haven't done the research to see how FOPA is applied by the courts but I can't imagine that you would be required to surrender/ship all your ammo separately or reconfigure your packing every time you cross a state border.

YMMV, IANYL, TINLA.
 
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BLKH2O

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Cow Town, Tn.
The wife and I took a trip to visit my son who is stationed at the Coast Guard Air Station in Cape Cod. Living in the state of Tennessee, I knew I couldn't carry my pistol as Massachusetts doesn't recognize my states HCP. After our visit, I wanted to go into New York to visit my birthplace of Oneonta. Hasn't changed much in the past fifty some odd years, but miss the old stores that I remembered as a kid. After spending the night, we headed to the Binghamton/Johnson City area where we lived before my Dad moved us to Florida. There again, knowing that I couldn't carry in New York and after seeing how bad the Tri-Cities area had turned out through the years, we went to Johnson City long enough to get a Brozetti's Pizza and headed back to the cabin in the mountain. Upstate New York is still as beautiful as I remembered, especially with the Fall colors.
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
First of all, never ask a police officer about laws. They tell people incorrect things all the time. The absolute best way to find out the real answer would be to contact a 2A lawyer.

That being said, the Peaceable Journey Act covers you through any state, as long as it is in a locked case, unloaded, (preferably dissasembled), and in the trunk of your car, and as long as you don't stop anywhere or stay overnight or anything like that, you are all set.

Slackware brings up a good point, combination locks are best. Even if they did stop you, and even if they did illegally search your car, they would have to break the lock to find out what is in it, and that would just be another major point that could be used against them in a court of law during the lawsuit.

Because lawyers are never wrong?

He quotes 18USC 926A:

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

See the bold section. I apologize if this may have been answered by someone, but if NY says it's a no go, then it's a no go. Guys forget that State Laws can and do supersede Federal code. Meaning, sure the Feds say you can transport, well the state says you can't so you can't.

For example, AWB expired on a federal level, but not in MA. Make sense?
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
mostly right.

except...the LEO would have to have PROBABLE CAUSE to believe the requirements of FOPA were being violated.

if you're driving a vehicle with out of state tags, present an out of state DL (presuming you've been stopped for a traffic violation)...and exercise your 5A rights...there is no way there can be PC (or even reasonable suspicion) that you are in violation of FOPA...unless the officer sees something or you or your passenger admit that there is a gun present.

if you choose to disclose that you are transporting under FOPA...you'd better be able to show that your origin and destination are legal for POSSESS AND CARRY. the mere possibility in the officer's mind that "XYZ state doesn't recognize your permit" or "you might be staying in NY state" or "YOU STARTED YOUR JOURNEY IN NY STATE" does not amount to probable cause for arrest until it is admitted by you or otherwise verified (perhaps your passenger tells a different story). keep in mind that your electronic toll pass may reveal your journey if they decide to try and go that route...may be weeks/months later but a warrant may still issue.

remember...the statute states that "POSSESS AND CARRY" are required elements for your origin AND destination "places". "Places" doesn't seem to be defined...but it seems to me that "home" is a "place" even though the state your home is in may not permit you to carry. you'd still be covered.

as you can see...if you disclose the presence of a firearm during a routine traffic stop, you are asking for BIG trouble in NY. the climate in NY is such that no NY judge is going to call it "unreasonable" to assume you're in violation of FOPA in order to insulate police from wrongful arrest liability...even if all they had was an unreasonable hunch.

if you're going to disclose, ALWAYS travel with a way to verify your origin/destination and license status at both ends of the trip (hotel reservations, gas receipts, restaurant receipts, licenses, firearms reciprocity agreements, and statutes for both states/places etc.) That last bit you can keep locked up with the firearms since you won't need it until things are really bad.

All you need to establish that you are in compliance are:

1. lawful to possess and carry at start
2. lawful to possess and carry at destination
3. locked up, unloaded and out of reach (NOT glovebox or center console)

nothing more...nothing less. people say things like "disassembled" and "ammo separate" and quite frankly if the legislature wanted to put those words in, they would have. they didn't.

keep in mind that NY may consider simply being in possession of firearm and ammo in the same place to be "loaded"...nevertheless...FOPA is clear that it controls "notwithstanding" local laws. i haven't done the research to see how FOPA is applied by the courts but I can't imagine that you would be required to surrender/ship all your ammo separately or reconfigure your packing every time you cross a state border.

YMMV, IANYL, TINLA.

Well said.
 
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