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The sigh heard across the world.

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
@OC Freedom, I do see what you're saying, and I could understand from the point-of-view you stated, but shouldn't a LEO/PO have arrested the person anyway, whether or not the victim wanted to press charges? I thought if a cop sees something happen that is criminal in nature, they didn't have to have the offendee's consent, to do their job, but then again I'm not one to talk, I should have persued the matter, instead of worrying about feeding my face. Should'a Could'a Would'a.

Yes, the officer could have arrested the person anyway, but since he didn't, it became your choice to either press for an arrest or just let the whole matter go. I myself like freedom of choice and not have Johnny law make it for me, but hey, that's just me:).

Remember those very wise men of-----> DEVO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVGINIsLnqU
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Why are so many people trained by the state to be so litigious for every little offense? Do you want to get involved with our so called justice system when the only injury that actually happened were slurs and a poor attempt at a gun grab. ...

"Litigious" has to do with lawsuits. Where we differ is the seriousness of the criminality of an aggressive person grabbing a person's gun.

Would you feel differently if the a-hole had grabbed the cop's gun, with or without "pig" slurs? If so, that's wrong.
 
Last edited:

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,241
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
What occurred was at least assault and likely assault & battery with a LEO as a witness, yet you did not pursue it. Your choice.

I would not have been so gracious.



Things went bad at the moment the a-hole grabbed the victim's firearm!

This was not a confrontation because of an accident. It was the deliberate aggressive act against an individual, and completely independent of any slurs.

As Grape said......"I would not have been so gracious."
I train for this and have used that training in the past. If you are close enough to touch my weapon, I am close enough to crush your throat. Sounds rough, but your voice will change if you attempt to take my weapon. Elbow is the proper tool for this exercise. Do not hesitate, do not falter, do not think(that is why you train), ACT.


As Mac said......This was a crime and there should have been charges. The BG got away with assaulting a "***" and probably feels empowered by it. He will do it again. Again, I would not have been so gracious. You can still pursue charges.
 

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
"Litigious" has to do with lawsuits. Where we differ is the seriousness of the criminality of an aggressive person grabbing a person's gun.

Would you feel differently if the a-hole had grabbed the cop's gun, with or without "pig" slurs? If so, that's wrong.


I was thinking more of involving the law in "litigious" yes, I could have chosen my wording better. We do differ on criminality of an aggressors actions, I do not feel its necessary to involve the law for such a minor issue, this guy was just a standard bully, lacking common sense, let it go and move on.

If this happened to a cop, it's the cop's business and it surely is not mine. The officer can make his own decision on how he wants to deal with it. So as they say we will agree to disagree.

litigious
/lɪˈtɪdʒəs/
adjective
1.
excessively ready to go to law
2.
of or relating to litigation
3.
inclined to dispute or disagree
 

rentamedic

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
50
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
I have to ask would this be exit 28 off 71 ? I do not post much but is there going to be another dinner any time soon his talk of food make me want some.
Side note to OP you been to play?
 

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
I have to ask would this be exit 28 off 71 ? I do not post much but is there going to be another dinner any time soon his talk of food make me want some.
Side note to OP you been to play?

T'was the Pilot station with the Subway and McD within, at the US60/2nd Mt. Sterling exit of I64. and "...been to play?" Huh?
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Drake, I'd say you let an extremely good teaching moment go by. What occurred was at least assault and likely assault & battery with a LEO as a witness, yet you did not pursue it. Your choice.

I would not have been so gracious.

+1 write the supervisor of the officer, he watched a crime committed and did nothing.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Gay people, as well as other types tend to attract arse holes. I would never suggest for even a moment that Drake change who he is, how he dresses, or hair, or what type gun he carries. I do believe charges should have been filed, here was a crime with actual victim, that is where LE should do the right thing.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
+1 write the supervisor of the officer,

Certainly, pressing charges is one proper response to an assault. But I suspect that Grapeshot may have been suggesting a more immediate, physical response to the gun grab than what was rendered. Several others have discussed their response to an attempted gun grab. I should think that especially so long as the response does not involve weapons beyond a single swing with the elbow, should pass muster as an appropriate defensive response to an illegal attempt to gain control of a legally carried firearm.

he [the officer] watched a crime committed and did nothing.

Did the officer actually see the gun get grabbed? Or did he merely witness the verbal confrontation after Drake had secured his firearm? That would make a whole world in difference to both the officer and how we might justly view his conduct.

If he saw the gun grab then he ignored an assault.

But if he happened to have his face down taking a big bite of the McBurger at the moment the gun was grabbed, he may have only seen/heard the verbal exchange after Drake secured his firearm, was ready to draw, and was exchanging words.

In this case, he may have seen a man reaching for his gun over an impolite, politically incorrect, boorish, but legal comment expressing one's views of homosexuals. In that case, what he ignored--or chose to downplay and de-escalate--was an OCer reaching for a gun prematurely.

I trust Drake didn't allow a stranger's hand to rest on his gun for more than a split second before correcting the situation. Did the cop acknowledge he saw the grab for the gun? Was it discussed? Or are assumptions being made?

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Considering the remarks made BEFORE the gun grab, the officer is an idiot if he was not paying attention. Not only is he a bigot, but a moron, I personally would push for the firing of either bigots, or morons wearing a badge.

IT IS NOT WHAT WE PAY FOR!
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
SNIP
Did the officer actually see the gun get grabbed? Or did he merely witness the verbal confrontation after Drake had secured his firearm? That would make a whole world in difference to both the officer and how we might justly view his conduct.

If he saw the gun grab then he ignored an assault.

But if he happened to have his face down taking a big bite of the McBurger at the moment the gun was grabbed, he may have only seen/heard the verbal exchange after Drake secured his firearm, was ready to draw, and was exchanging words.

In this case, he may have seen a man reaching for his gun over an impolite, politically incorrect, boorish, but legal comment expressing one's views of homosexuals. In that case, what he ignored--or chose to downplay and de-escalate--was an OCer reaching for a gun prematurely.

I trust Drake didn't allow a stranger's hand to rest on his gun for more than a split second before correcting the situation. Did the cop acknowledge he saw the grab for the gun? Was it discussed? Or are assumptions being made?

Charles

That is an excellent question.
Drake, can you clarify if the officer's comments indicated he actually witnessed the gun grab. That is an important aspect to deconstructing the events. I have been assuming the officer saw the entire episode but that is just that, an assumption.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Lots of assumptions

Considering the remarks made BEFORE the gun grab, the officer is an idiot if he was not paying attention.

IF he heard them, sure. Did he?

Not only is he a bigot, but a moron, I personally would push for the firing of either bigots, or morons wearing a badge.

If he heard the comments and failed to pay attention, then you've got a case for moron.

I'm not sure I heard a case for bigotry. That is a pretty ugly jump to make over some a personal suggestion on not OCing, or changing one's hair or dress style to attract less attention. It clearly wasn't made under color of law as described by Drake, but was a personal opinion expressed in parting.

Drake has the right to dress as he sees fit. And a woman has a right to wear a short, tight miniskirt and stiletto heals while walking down dark allies in shady parts of town at 2:00 am. Once the light changes, a pedestrian has every legal right-of-way to step into the crosswalk regardless of how fast the bus is approaching the intersection or how icy the roads.

But unfortunate consequences are entirely foreseeable in the latter two cases even by those without a bigoted bone anywhere in their body.

If hair style/color, clothing style, or other fashion statements including visible tats or piercings or even an OC'd firearm are routinely generating unwanted attention, or attention that the recipient cannot deal with safely, then perhaps a change is advised for the same reasons we might advise pedestrians to be careful about stepping in front of speeding buses on icy roads, or young women to reconsider where and when they choose to walk alone. As my old driver's ed teacher used to tell us, "Being dead right isn't much of a consolation."

We don't have much choice over our height or skin color. Weight isn't going to change quickly. But how we dress and do our hair are very much within our control. When a person chooses fashion well outside the norms of the society in which he is living (As I do periodically when I wear one of my kilts and other Scottish attire), he ought not be surprised when that choice brings additional attention.

This is no excuse for assault or other criminal conduct, nor even for overtly rude or offensive behavior. But neither should we be blind to reality.

On a couple of occasions, I have been the target of un-invited sexual touching from women while I was wearing my kilt. In their minds, the women were just being friendly and flirtatious. But reverse the rolls and the instigator might well expect to get his face slapped at least. Admittedly, those dynamics are different than if the sexes are reversed given disparity in size and strength; and orders of magnitude less offensive and infinitely less dangerous than having a gun grabbed. But the simple fact remains that when I choose to wear my kilt I have to be prepared to properly deal with various interactions that are far less likely when I wear more common Saxon attire. From cat calls, to polite questions, to staring, to far more "flirtatious" behavior, how I look directly affects how others react to me.

If a person is utterly unprepared to maintain the SA needed to maintain positive control of a firearm, then OCing (and quite likely even CCing) is a bad idea. If a person cannot properly de-escalate the bigoted responses to his fashion statements, then maybe a change in fashion is worth considering. There is a lot more to assuring that we go home safely each evening than just carrying a gun.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Officers are trained to pay attention! If he did not he does not deserve the badge, that is it. You can make excuses for him all you want, but he failed.
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
I carry a CRKT M16-14ZSF ( http://www.crkt.com/M16-14-Z-Desert-...WKS-Combo-Edge ) hinge down which can be opened on the draw by snagging the lower flipper on the rear corner of my left front pocket, and I practice just that.

In a similar situation there would be blood on the floor; as I carry a 1911 style auto in a forward cant pancake holster under my right elbow (3:00) the grabber would have to be "nut to butt" to get it out of the holster. Once drawn the knife would be used for what I like to think of as "operation castration". If the grabber was a bit further back, spin and slice the abdomen from hip bone to hip bone and then some more cuts, and the blade is kept shaving sharp.

Makes sense. I would just hate to slice open the throat of an eight-year old. I guess it boils down to whether you look first before you apply the counter-force.


Separately, now I'm wondering. I wonder if one of the standard tactics for an attack from behind would work. You know, step slightly back and left with you right leg to position it so his left leg is "outside", grab his right hand (on your gun), then reach over your left shoulder to grab (hair, shirt, whatever), and then judo flip him over your right hip. Thoughts?

As I said the gun is at 3:00 under my right elbow, no way to grab the gun without me feeling the grabber's arm, either at the first instant or when I clamp down in defense. I would think I would be able the tell the difference in size, angle of grab etc between an adult and a child.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Officers are trained to pay attention! If he did not he does not deserve the badge, that is it. You can make excuses for him all you want, but he failed.

And officers are human. He may have been out of earshot when the initial exchange took place. He may have been otherwise engaged.

I'm sure you never made any mistakes while on duty.

Moreover, considering that the account of the incident has some from a guy who admits he has terrible SA and has posted multiple gun grab attempts due to SA, you are making lots of assumptions on very scant information.

I'm not saying the cop didn't screw up. I'm simply saying it is possible he reacted entirely appropriately to what he did hear and see. You are the one making absolute assertions. Why are you looking for conflict rather than conceding we don't know what the cop heard and saw--especially since Drake hasn't had or taken a chance to provide additional info yet--and so it is possible his conduct was appropriate?

You weren't there (were you?) and so you don't KNOW what the cop hear or saw or should have reasonable heard or seen. Why are you so quick to condemn what you don't know, yet mute on the admitted lack of SA that has lead to multiple attempted gun grabs? We KNOW the lack of SA was a problem. That is a safety problem if it leads to a Bad Guy getting his hands on a gun. Where is the self-professed "safety nazi."

Pretend I'm not the one raising possible alternatives to the cop being a blatant bigot or incompetent fool so you can stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and consider on some things rationally and objectively.

Again, my opinion subject to change pending more data.

Charles
 

SW40VE-OC

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
51
Location
Sparks, NV
Frankly, I'm getting really tired of trying to follow along with the thread, only to have each and every one hijacked by bickering between the same two or three members. I won't take sides in that ongoing battle, it's just my opinion that it doesn't have a place in the general message traffic.
It seems that the OP in later posts admits to less than exemplary SA and was willing to admit his errors. We can all learn what to do/ not to do from the encounter as described. I opine that each encounter we have can aid in our own education and that of others on this board.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
This is the second time in about 6 months that Drake has been assaulted and he posted about it here. The two events are similar in that he was not recording, he was unexpectedly attacked, the attacker could not be identified (in the last one, even the KSP trooper could not be identified), they both happened in a food service area and Drake did not think that either event was worthy of his filing a complaint (even though a LEO witnessed this last one) and there is no written evidence of either event. This is certainly very bad luck for Drake, but it provokes several questions in my mind;

1. When will Drake learn that recording is necessary if you walk around OC or if you walk around gay? Two recorders if you do both.
2. When will Drake learn that people learn faster if they are punished for their bad acts?
3. When will Drake realize that prosecuting criminals is more important than a snack?
4. When will Drake decide to improve his situational awareness?
5. When will Drake stop OC'ing in places where others are in close proximity?
6. Does Drake really want these things to stop happening to him or does he just want to keep complaining about them when they do happen?
7. Will Drake do anything, for himself, in the future to make it more difficult for someone to get by with mistreating him like this again?
I agree on all points.

And the fact that there has not been an on-point reply to your queries answers the question thus: "Not for the foreseeable future".

And of course, it's all your fault for pointing out, via your questions, what is painfully clear to everyone else.

<sigh heard across the world>
 
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