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State Police Illegally Ties Drivers License To Carry Permits Violating the Law

Grapeshot

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"What good are laws when even the law-keepers refuse to obey them?"

"That is the question facing the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as the State Police are actively breaking the law by having a persons LTCF disclosed to them whenever they pull over a driver. You see, a recent update to the NCIC was done that now couples the information so when they run your drivers license they will also be informed whether you have a license to carry a firearm."

"Only one problem…such a move is completely illegal."

http://bulletsfirst.net/2016/10/03/...s-license-to-carry-permits-violating-the-law/
 
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solus

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nc citizen's chp are numbered with the individual's DL so when the nice LEs run the plate they immediately see the registered owner has a permit...if you fail to disclose...ticket.

ipse
 

Grapeshot

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Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
 

countryclubjoe

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Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
Than use all your authority and move the topic thereto, such valuable information should not be discarded because it is outside the box of conventional wisdom.

Regards

CCJ
 

Grapeshot

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Gentlemen - you are off-topic with the posts here on driving licenses, the right to drive, etc.

Such content belongs in the Social Lounge.
Than use all your authority and move the topic thereto, such valuable information should not be discarded because it is outside the box of conventional wisdom.

Regards

CCJ
That would not be consistent with the OP/topic of this thread.

Could I create a new thread from the off topic replies? Sure, but I am here to help educate and condition people to making wise choices, not be their sitters. Likely that in most cases, I will continue offer guidance or delete off topic posts. You think your non OC/RKBA posts are worth discussing then make the trip to the Social Lounge.

Please, return to the OP/topic of this thread. Deliberately ignoring that admonition will not qualify for a free lunch.
 
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Grapeshot

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To explain what should not have to be explained, if one keeps up to date with the Forum Rules:

OCDO is private property and all are in effect guests here. The is no right to post as one chooses - instead there is the privilege of posting in accordance with the rules and called decisions which have the force of a rule.

ACCEPTANCE OF RULES If you do not agree with any of these Rules then please do not use this site, because BY USING THIS SITE YOU WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE IRREVOCABLY AGREED TO THESE RULES. Please note that these Rules may be revised and reissued without notice at any time. You should review the current Rules regularly, since your continued use of the site will be deemed as irrevocable acceptance of any revisions.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

While we prefer to moderate with a gloved hand (give suggestions and warnings), there are by necessity other means available.

When someone attacks or disagrees publicly by posting, then I will make some effort to respond in kind. Logic would dictate that a request for interpretation be sent to me by PM rather than thread hijacking. I will be most willing to oblige such a query.

BTW - I operate as a Moderator at the pleasure and under the authority of the site owners. In a perfect world, there would be no need to moderate......this isn't a perfect world unfortunately.

Last time - return to the premise and limits of the OP or receive presumed unwanted attention.
 

bc.cruiser

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nc citizen's chp are numbered with the individual's DL so when the nice LEs run the plate they immediately see the registered owner has a permit...if you fail to disclose...ticket.

ipse
Give me ONE instance of a citation of this (as stated). Not disclosing you have a CHP is not unlawful unless you are actually carrying a concealed handgun.
 

Statkowski

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This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.
 

bc.cruiser

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This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.
Understood.

So, are you saying that the source for Grapeshot's post is in error? I understand the "not tied to" phrase, but if the information is routinely supplied then it is essentially the same thing. Your response, or lack of one, to LEO questioning is not the point. The point is that your SP are violating state law.
 

solus

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This is a Pennsylvania site, not a North Carolina site. We have LTCFs, not CHPs, and LTCFs are not tied to one's driver's license. Whether you have one or not, or are carrying or not, there is no obligation to respond either way if such action or activity is totally unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop.

1622 states in part, quote: "... upon lawful demand of nice police officer SHALL PRODUCE...for inspection. unquote.


where do you read 'no obligation' in that statute let alone any definition regarding 'totally' unrelated...


nice officer 'lawfully demands' and salivation begins...


ipse


forgive my oversight of posting in the PA thread...
 

Statkowski

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1622 states in part, quote: "... upon lawful demand of nice police officer SHALL PRODUCE...for inspection. unquote.
Just because Officer Friendly asks, because the traffic stop is related to not coming to a Full Stop at a stop sign, doesn't mean his request is a Lawful Demand.

Now, if he (or she) notices that you are carrying/transporting a firearm in or on your vehicle, then it would be a Lawful Demand.
 

Maverick9

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This whole thing of 'shall disclose' or 'disclose upon demand' is poorly understood and actually a set up.

1. You do NOT talk about your firearm. The disclose part is about your PERMIT. I have rarely seen anyone acknowledge this INCLUDING police.

2. If you are not carrying you are not required to SAY ANYTHING. But then you could be arrested, because it's a catch-22. In order to satisfy the demand you are basically required to self-non-incriminate and say "I am not carrying". But BY LAW you should not be required to say this.

3. If a cop is savvy they can run up to your window, start talking and making demands not letting you talk and then immediately write a ticket for failing to disclose. (note I said 'can'). This has happen at least once in the news. Again, what is the point? Nobody seems to be able to say, except to generate revenue or create bad feelings among the very people LEOs should be keeping on their side.

This is all designed to put a permit-carrying, background-vetted, law-abiding citizen in jeopardy.

Note, there are one or two states which actually talk about disclosing about your carry piece, IF you have a firearm. ALL the rest only talk about the permit. Sadly there are probably only a handful of LEO who will admit to knowing this. Most know, I believe, but play dumb.

Off-topic a bit:
I might add ISTM it's the same deal with handicap permits. It's on your license. Any LEO that comes up to your car, if you forgot to put the hang tag can glance at your stats and see you have a permit. WHY make you display it? Is that so rednecks won't egg your car in the Walmart parking lot?
 
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Statkowski

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I might add ISTM it's the same deal with handicap permits. It's on your license. Any LEO that comes up to your car, if you forgot to put the hang tag can glance at your stats and see you have a permit. WHY make you display it? Is that so rednecks won't egg your car in the Walmart parking lot?
Which license? Driver's license? Vehicle's license plate?

Vehicle is registered to me. I do not have a handicap permit. My wife does. She has a license, but doesn't drive. LEO can look at my stats all he/she/it wants, but nothing will show up concerning the hang tag. I display it when transporting her to avoid an expensive ticket.
 

Maverick9

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Which license? Driver's license? Vehicle's license plate?

Vehicle is registered to me. I do not have a handicap permit. My wife does. She has a license, but doesn't drive. LEO can look at my stats all he/she/it wants, but nothing will show up concerning the hang tag. I display it when transporting her to avoid an expensive ticket.
Special case. If you have a HC permit and are the driver the cops know it. So, yes in your special case you need to put up the tag and if your wife is not with you you may NOT park in such a space, tag in the car or not, because you need a wallet card (in Virginia).

If your wife IS with you and you are seated in the car, or she is, you do not need the hang tag because the officer should contact you and she can then show him her wallet card.

Not sure why you're splitting hairs over a very specific case that is probably pretty rare. Your wife can be on the car registration as an owner. It's a good idea so she can sell it if you become deceased.
 

solus

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Just because Officer Friendly asks, because the traffic stop is related to not coming to a Full Stop at a stop sign, doesn't mean his request is a Lawful Demand.

Now, if he (or she) notices that you are carrying/transporting a firearm in or on your vehicle, then it would be a Lawful Demand.
afternoon mr. S, do you have a firearm in the vehicle?

sorry lawful demand just tendered to ya mr S.

officer safety trumps your perception of request or their lawful demand...w/ or w/o the smile or gentle tone.

ipse

added..you are right mavrick on misunderstood...however the nice LEs use officer safety as their shield to rationalize a great many sins against citizens.
 
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countryclubjoe

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When you purchase your permission slip to drive, you give the state jurisdiction over yourself and your property. Surrending rights for a privilege. End of story.
 

Grapeshot

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When you purchase your permission slip to drive, you give the state jurisdiction over yourself and your property. Surrending rights for a privilege. End of story.
I would suggest that we rent the driving license and accept certain conditions for keeping it active during the limited term to which it applies.

I say "rent" because it is for a term defined in a set number of years - not a lifetime permission slip. It has all of the terms of a contract: Offer, acceptance, consideration, date, signatures AND is voidable; therefore it is a contract to which you have agreed.

Also IMHO, we will likely never see our legislators abolish the present system. Some here will rant, others will find major fault in a hit and run tactic. As for me, I have bigger fish to fry in areas more germane to this thread and OCDO generally where real change can be potentially accomplished.

This thread is about PA driving licenses, carry permits, and cross referencing the information. It is NOT about the rights vs freedoms concept.
 
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