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Spread Sheet - County/City Ordinances - Stop & ID, CHP Reqs, Airguns, & Park Bans

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County

Mr. H,
First, please allow me to apologize for the delay in response to your inquiry.

I do recall your recent email regarding SB757. At that time, the email was forwarded to the County Administrator, Barry Clark and the County Attorney for review.

I just spoke with Mr. Clark regarding SB757. It is my understanding that the County Code will need to be revised to reflect the recently approved State legislation regarding the shooting of pneumatic firearms.

This is a County Code reference, which is updated through the County Administration office. If you have any additional questions or concerns, do not hesitate to contact the County Administration Office at (434) 985-5201.

However, if I can be of further assistance please let me know.

Bart J. Svoboda
Planning Director
County of Greene, Virginia
(434) 985-5282



I kind of let this slide as I had other issues to deal with but finally.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA

This is a County Code reference, which is updated through the County Administration office.
I kind of let this slide as I had other issues to deal with but finally.
Are they saying that all their county ordinances are just "declared into existence" by the County Administrator? Is that legal?

TFred
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Are they saying that all their county ordinances are just "declared into existence" by the County Administrator? Is that legal?

TFred

I believe that refers to the updating or posting ordinances after they have been properly approved.
 

B. Reddy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
110
Location
Orange County, Virginia
Are they saying that all their county ordinances are just "declared into existence" by the County Administrator? Is that legal?

TFred

TFred-

It appears Mr. Svoboda was just being helpful by suggesting future county ordinance queries be directed to the County Administrator when he wrote: "This is a County Code reference, which is updated through the County Administration office. "

Mr. Svoboda is the Planning Director, and deals with zoning and growth issues. I know the man, he's good people.


Mr. H,
First, please allow me to apologize for the delay in response to your inquiry.

I do recall your recent email regarding SB757. At that time, the email was forwarded to the County Administrator, Barry Clark and the County Attorney for review.

I just spoke with Mr. Clark regarding SB757. It is my understanding that the County Code will need to be revised to reflect the recently approved State legislation regarding the shooting of pneumatic firearms.

This is a County Code reference, which is updated through the County Administration office. If you have any additional questions or concerns, do not hesitate to contact the County Administration Office at (434) 985-5201.

However, if I can be of further assistance please let me know.

Bart J. Svoboda
Planning Director
County of Greene, Virginia
(434) 985-5282
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
TFred-

It appears Mr. Svoboda was just being helpful by suggesting future county ordinance queries be directed to the County Administrator when he wrote: "This is a County Code reference, which is updated through the County Administration office. "

Mr. Svoboda is the Planning Director, and deals with zoning and growth issues. I know the man, he's good people.

That's how I took it. Bart was only included because he was the person who spoke with me at the BOS meeting when I first brought this to everyones attention.
Bart also happen to be the first person to email me regaqrding the issue.
I concur he does seem to be a stand up guy.


Marco,

Thanks for discovering this discrepancy. We will need to follow our attorney's advice and the public hearing rules, but we are working on this update.

Jim Frydl

I received this email today.
I my effort to me more invloved I plan to attend as many BOS meeting as possible.
The wife thinks I should run for a vacant seat next time around... I don't think they (politicians etc) are ready for someone like me to be that involved.... :)

besides the shorts and sandals might turn folks off
 

mk4

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
548
Location
VA
The wife thinks I should run for a vacant seat next time around... I don't think they (politicians etc) are ready for someone like me to be that involved.... :)

besides the shorts and sandals might turn folks off

get on the ballot, Marco, and i'll vote for ya! ;)
 

d dubya

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I'm willing to contact my home town of Altavista, whose code states:

Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type....

As it happens, I'll be visiting their parks next weekend. I know this may seem paranoid, but Virginia 15.2.915 makes the above ordinance invalid, correct?

Would it be of help to have a copy of the VA statute in case I'm confronted by an LEO?
Thanks,
Dave
 
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TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I'm willing to contact my home town of Altavista, whose code states:

Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type....

As it happens, I'll be visiting their parks next weekend. I know this may seem paranoid, but Virginia 15.2.915 makes the above ordinance invalid, correct?

Would it be of help to have a copy of the VA statute in case I'm confronted by an LEO?
Thanks,
Dave
IMHO, you're best bet is to contact the attorney for the locality and politely inform them of the ordinance that is invalid, providing reference to 15.2-915.

You won't win a dispute "on the side of the road" with any LEO, and there is court precedence (although out of our US district) that excuses LEOs for enforcing invalid laws, because "how could they know?" The ever present double standard...

If you wish to openly flaunt the ordinance, be prepared for a ticket and/or arrest, and make sure you have your voice recorder running and your attorney's phone number on your speed dial. :)

TFred

PS: Looks like they are in violation of the pneumatic gun change as well. ETA: Second look, it appears they tried to fix the code by adding section 46-182.1, but they left 46-182 alone, including the pneumatic gun being included in the definition of "firearm", rendering that section invalid. Looks like they have a bunch of amateurs writing their ordinances down there...
 
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Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
I'm willing to contact my home town of Altavista, whose code states:

Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type....

As it happens, I'll be visiting their parks next weekend. I know this may seem paranoid, but Virginia 15.2.915 makes the above ordinance invalid, correct?

Would it be of help to have a copy of the VA statute in case I'm confronted by an LEO?
Thanks,
Dave

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=13455
Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.
hyperlink.png

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type, horseback riding, littering, use of motorized vehicles of any type except on paved roadways and parking lots, rock throwing, yelling obscenities and/or profane or vulgar language, or playing radios, phonographs, tape players, CD players or other mechanical devices at a level which can be plainly heard at a distance of 5O feet from such device. A person shall be deemed to be "playing" such device if he or she either owns the device or exercises control thereof, or both. The term "yelling" shall mean the verbal expression by a person at such volume as to make such expression clearly understandable at a distance of 50 feet from such person.

They do seem to prohibit.

I also just got off the phone with the Town's attorney John Eller 434-369-5661, he isn't a respectful fella imho... and that's being polite (I'll be sure to record any future conversations and post them if the need arises).

I tried to inform Mr Eller of 15.2-915 but once I notified him that town code 50.4 was out dated with state law he stated:
Mr Eller-" So, you want to carry guns in town parks!"
Me -Well Sir, state law allows guns to be carried.
Mr. Eller- "Well go ahead then!!!!!"
And he hung up.

So, if anyone contacts Mr Eller be sure to have you voice recorder running.

Someone from the area should really take the bull by the horns and follow through as Mr Eller had no interest in dealing with me as a non resident of the area.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=13455
Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.
hyperlink.png

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type, horseback riding, littering, use of motorized vehicles of any type except on paved roadways and parking lots, rock throwing, yelling obscenities and/or profane or vulgar language, or playing radios, phonographs, tape players, CD players or other mechanical devices at a level which can be plainly heard at a distance of 5O feet from such device. A person shall be deemed to be "playing" such device if he or she either owns the device or exercises control thereof, or both. The term "yelling" shall mean the verbal expression by a person at such volume as to make such expression clearly understandable at a distance of 50 feet from such person.

They do seem to prohibit.

I also just got off the phone with the Town's attorney John Eller 434-369-5661, he isn't a respectful fella imho... and that's being polite (I'll be sure to record any future conversations and post them if the need arises).

I tried to inform Mr Eller of 15.2-915 but once I notified him that a town ordcance was out dated with state law he stated:
Mr Eller-" So, you want to carry guns in town parks!"
Me -Well Sir, state law allows guns to be carried.
Mr. Eller- "Well go ahead then!!!!!"
And he hung up.

So, if anyone contacts Mr Eller be sure to have you voice recorder running.

Someone from the area should really take the bull by the horns and follow through as Mr Eller had no interest in dealing with me as a non resident of the area.

Precisely why the preemption statute needs some teeth in it. :banghead:
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
Precisely why the preemption statute needs some teeth in it

Precisely why the preemption statute needs some teeth in it. :banghead:

Yes, the GA needs to act on this...
I fear that someone will try to arrest someone unlawfully for one of these outdated County/Town codes and the person will excercise their rights not to be unlawfully arrested.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Yes, the GA needs to act on this...
I fear that someone will one try to arrest someone unlawfully for one of these outdated County/Town codes and the person will excercise their rights not to be unlawfully arrested.

Florida has a solution which should work fine in Virginia:

Starting October 1st, any public official who passes or enforces gun regulations below the state level faces a $5,000 personal fine and could even be removed from office by the governor for enacting or enforcing local gun laws.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/gun...aw-will-soon-end-local-firearms-restrictions/
 
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TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Yes, the GA needs to act on this...
I fear that someone will try to arrest someone unlawfully for one of these outdated County/Town codes and the person will excercise their rights not to be unlawfully arrested.
Don't forget it was the Second Circuit I believe that recently ruled LEOs are protected when they arrest for invalid ordinances, because they have no way to know they are invalid.

That renders a part of 15.2-915 meaningless. We really need to start litigating these cases.

In your case, I would go over the attorney's head to the council or supervisors. It should be clear that you are trying to eliminate their exposure to litigation, but some people are too thick-headed to see when someone is trying to do them a favor.

TFred
 
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Marco

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Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
15.2-915 needs civil/criminal penalties attached!!!!

Don't forget it was the Second Circuit I believe that recently ruled LEOs are protected when they arrest for invalid ordinances, because they have no way to know they are invalid.

That renders a part of 15.2-915 meaningless. We really need to start litigating these cases.

In your case, I would go over the attorney's head to the council or supervisors. It should be clear that you are trying to eliminate their exposure to litigation, but some people are too thick-headed to see when someone is trying to do them a favor.

TFred
It appears you misunderstood my meaning. I will not elaborate.
However, I agree 15.2-915 needs civil/criminal penalties attached!!!!
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
It appears you misunderstood my meaning. I will not elaborate.
However, I agree 15.2-915 needs civil/criminal penalties attached!!!!
I got your meaning, but what I'm saying is that with the precedent (even though non-binding to the 4th circuit) set by the 2nd, there may very well soon be no such thing as the protection afforded to the citizen in the circumstance of which you are thinking.

If a LEO is granted full immunity for arresting someone for an invalid ordinance, the rest of that whole idea falls apart soon thereafter.

ETA: In other words, if a LEO is granted full immunity for unlawfully arresting someone for an invalid ordinance, how can the citizen still have rights to protect themselves from unlawful arrest?

We've simply GOT to end this ridiculous double standard.

TFred
 
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Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
I'm willing to contact my home town of Altavista, whose code states:

Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type....

As it happens, I'll be visiting their parks next weekend. I know this may seem paranoid, but Virginia 15.2.915 makes the above ordinance invalid, correct?

Would it be of help to have a copy of the VA statute in case I'm confronted by an LEO?
Thanks,
Dave


The Chief of Police appears to be a reasonable person.

Thank You Mr. H for bringing this issue up to our attention. We have been in the process of changing/revising several ordinances due to revisions of Va. State Law. I have forward your concern to the Town Attorney and I can assure you this issue will be resolved.

If I can be of any further assistance to you, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Clay W. Hamilton
Chief of Police, Altavista P.D.



Dear Chief Hamilton,

It appears that the Town of AltaVista has an out dated code with referencing the possession of firearms in town parks.

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=13455
Sec. 50-4. - Acts prohibited in town parks.
GetInline.aspx

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to commit or attempt to commit any of the following acts while on the premises of Shreve Park, Staunton Riverboat Park and all other parks in the town: archery, climbing on waterwheel or wading in the fountain (in Shreve Park), damaging signs, equipment or facilities, golf practice, possession of firearms of any type, horseback riding, littering, use of motorized vehicles of any type except on paved roadways and parking lots, rock throwing, yelling obscenities and/or profane or vulgar language, or playing radios, phonographs, tape players, CD players or other mechanical devices at a level which can be plainly heard at a distance of 5O feet from such device. A person shall be deemed to be "playing" such device if he or she either owns the device or exercises control thereof, or both. The term "yelling" shall mean the verbal expression by a person at such volume as to make such expression clearly understandable at a distance of 50 feet from such person.
Unless such described acts are prohibited specifically in other sections of this Code, any person violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed to be trespassing and shall be guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor.
(Code 1968, § 13-15)

If you would reference state code 15.2-915;

http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/15.2-915.HTM

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.
A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute.
B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.
C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.
(1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923; 2009, cc. 735, 772.)


I tried to politely bring this matter to the town's attorney Mr. John Eller this morning via a phone call but Mr. Eller wasn't interested in listening and hung up.


I sincerely hope you will advise the proper folks and have this town ordinance that is contrary to state law fixed/removed.
I'd also appreciate it if you would notify me with what action is to be taken to correct.


Sincerely,
Marco


The town's attorney has serious issues.


Subject: Altavista Code 50-4
From: ellaws@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 13:00:34 -0400

I reviewed the section and it does contain a prohibition against firearms in the park. I was aware of 15.2-915 and thought we had previously removed from our code all such prohibitions. This one slipped through. We are doing an annual revision of code sections changed by acts of the General Assembly in June and the firearm prohibition will be removed. As you are obviously well aware, such prohibitions in effect when 15.2-915 was enacted are declared invalid by 915, anyway. Our Chief of Police, who gave me your email address, tells me that our police have not been enforcing any firearm regulations in the park. Thus, as I told you, you are free to bring your guns into our park at any time. Bring some today if you like.


J. Johnson Eller, Jr.
Attorney at Law
P.O. Box 209
712 Main Street
Altavista, VA 24517
(434) 369-5661
(434) 369-5663 Fax


The Chief probably grabbed him by the short hairs... :)


I did write a thank you email to Chief Hamilton and responded to Mr. Eller's email.
Vcdl Pres. was cc'd on all.
 
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