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So you are sitting in your University law class and.............

gogodawgs

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http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020501248_suincidentxml.html

Seattle police said the man was talking incoherently and turned over tables and other classroom furniture.

A man who took over a Seattle University law-school classroom Wednesday afternoon and frightened students with his bizarre behavior was later arrested by Seattle police on suspicion of trespassing.
Several students said his behavior was so unsettling that they thought he was going to pull a gun or become violent. They also said they were disappointed at the slow response from campus public-safety officers.

You are 21, have a CPL...... You do what?


p.s. Seattle U policy is here..... http://www.seattleu.edu/policies/ (not a crime)
 
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EMNofSeattle

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well if the U had a no-gun policy and I was carrying in violation of said policy while having however many thousands of dollars invested in tuition at that school, It would strongly depend. but the article states the individual only said "bang" and stuck his hands in his coat..... I dunno heavily fact dependent. At the college I attend now students face immediate expulsion for carrying a gun on campus unless they're an off-duty police officer. so i'll break it down to two scenarios

1) he's looking at me while putting his hands in his coat like he has a gun, at this point consequences be damned he's looking down the duty end of mine

2)he's looking away, from me threatening someone else, I'll place my hand on grip of pistol, not yet exposing it but making sure it's ready to fire (probably thumb cocking the hammer too) and assess, if he pulls a weapon, so do I, if he doesn't, I don't and make reasonable attempts to get to a better tactical position.


*The policy sounds dumb, the LEO exemption is written as "in the performance of duties" why does whether or not the LEO is in uniform matter? do they become untrustworthy once they clock out?

"federal permit" what exactly is that? does anyone happen to have a "federal permit" to carry a firearm? other then Federal Agent credentials?
 
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Jeff Hayes

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First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.
 

EMNofSeattle

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First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.

Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?

The article implied students feared he would pull a gun. what would lead to that kind of fear? if he's turning over furniture then sticks his hand into his pocket or a jacket that should be all the reasonable fear required to use force against him.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.


The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases...........

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary...........
 

EMNofSeattle

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Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?


UMMM........................... NO unless of course you are furniture.

It is if the subject is moving their hands into their clothing where weapons would normally be kept. or the movements were combined with threat of force against another individual.
 

MKEgal

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Depending on where I was sitting in the room...
Get out [good reason to sit near the door]
Encourage others to leave
Throw things at the guy (once he started being threatening)
Tackle the guy (ditto)
Call 911 (cell reception nonexistant in the basement classroom)
Can't do anything really useful 'cause the campus is a "weapons-free zone"

they were disappointed at the slow response from campus public-safety officers
Well, gee, maybe now people will see the sense behind letting people carry on campus!
It says they "only" had to wait a minute for the campus security people to get there.
How many rounds can you fire in a minute?

thought he was going to pull a gun or become violent
So he wasn't violent, just turning over furniture? :eek:
And that was only after he'd been asked to leave, and refused, & the prof hit the panic button because of that (before he became violent)??
Good grief, what kind of whimps do they raise out there?
About 50 people in the room, and all they could think to do was hit the panic button?

Of course, it doesn't look like their campus security people are much better...:
The suspect... was being followed by Seattle U security officers when Seattle police arrived
That's gonna keep the campus real safe. :rolleyes:

[some students] believed the school should have instituted a lockdown and sent out a campuswide warning
For someone interrupting a class & acting bizzarely?

students hastily packed up their laptops and backpacks and left the room
:banghead: :cuss:
If their lives were really in danger, they should have left. Don't pack up, don't grab anything, LEAVE.
Read this piece by Kathy Jackson.
It talks about how people get stuck in socially acceptable rules, & even when their lives might be in danger by obeying them, they still obey.
 

BigDave

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Running around yelling while turning over furniture isn't reasonable fear of grave bodily harm?

The article implied students feared he would pull a gun. what would lead to that kind of fear? if he's turning over furniture then sticks his hand into his pocket or a jacket that should be all the reasonable fear required to use force against him.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.


The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases...........

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary...........

Again when reading the RCW you are quoting it also must be in the context of 9A.16.010 Definitions (1) "Necessary" means that no reasonably effective alternative to the use of force appeared to exist and that the amount of force used was reasonable to effect the lawful purpose intended.

First off if you are carrying that is a mute point, nothing in the article rose to the level of a threat of great bodily harm or death so the use of a firearm is not justified.

+1 and don't you get use to that! either! lol
 

bmg50cal

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WA - North Whidbey/ Deception Pass
SEATTLE UNIVERSITY
FIREARMS AND WEAPONS POLICY

Seattle University is committed to ensuring a safe and secure environment for the
University community. This policy is a proactive step towards reducing the risk of
injury or death associated with intentional or accidental use of firearms and weapons.

Policy

All members of the Seattle University community, including faculty, staff, students and
visitors are prohibited from possessing, discharging, or otherwise using firearms,
explosives or weapons (“weapons”) on University premises without the expressed
authorization of the Director of Campus Public Safety, whether or not the person has
been issued a federal or state license to possess such weapons.

All members of the Seattle University community are also prohibited from possessing
weapons while working or attending University or University-related events, whether or
not the event is on University premises.
Any person violating this policy will be subject to disciplinary action including but not
limited to suspension, expulsion, termination, removal from University premises or
events and/or criminal prosecution.
Suspected violations of this policy should be reported immediately to the Department of
Campus Public Safety at (206) 296-5911.

Exceptions

The following exceptions apply to this policy:

• Commissioned law enforcement officers in performance of their official duties.
• Military personnel in performance of their official duties.
• Armored vehicle guards.
• An individual using or possessing a weapon in connection with a scheduled
educational, recreational or training program or activity authorized in writing by
the Director of Campus Public Safety and under the supervision of a University
employee.
• Additional exceptions to this policy may be requested in writing to the Director of
Campus Public Safety. The Director will review requests on a case-by-case basis
with University Counsel.

Definitions

• Firearm – Any device that shoots a bullet, pellet, flare, tranquilizer, dart, or
other projectile, whether loaded or unloaded, including those powered by CO2.
This includes but is not limited to guns, air guns, dart guns, pistols, revolvers,
rifles, shot guns, cannons, and any ammunition for any such device.

• Weapon – Any device that is designed to or traditionally used to inflict serious
bodily injury. This includes but is not limited to:

• Firearms, slingshots, switchblades, daggers, swords, blackjacks,
brass knuckles, bows and arrows, tasers, hand grenades, knives
with blades three (3) inches or longer, nunchucks, and throwing
stars; or
• Any object that could be reasonably construed as a weapon; or
• Any object legally controlled as a weapon or treated as a weapon
under the law.

• Explosives – Any dangerous chemicals, substances, mixtures or compounds
capable of or intended to cause injury to another, or possessed in negligent
disregard for the safety of self and others. This includes but is not limited to
firecrackers, gunpowder and dynamite.
SEADOCS:336004.2

Yep pretty crappy just like most of the other schools... I may return to school and put that G.I bill to use.

Message obscured to protect the innocent.

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gogodawgs

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EMN, please take the time to understand use of force....

BigDave has it....

Jeff, spot on.... reading an comprehending what is happening and understanding use of force, what is necessary is important.



I would take cover and evaluate.... no weapon is alleged.
 

Jeff Hayes

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:banghead: :cuss:
If their lives were really in danger, they should have left. Don't pack up, don't grab anything, LEAVE.

Exactly
 

sudden valley gunner

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EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
EMN, please take the time to understand use of force....

BigDave has it....

Jeff, spot on.... reading an comprehending what is happening and understanding use of force, what is necessary is important.



I would take cover and evaluate.... no weapon is alleged.

Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

The first time I read it I had already head a radio spot about the incident that implied the man directly threatened he had a gun, which as we now know was incorrect, yes under the circumstances listed in the article use of force, at least to the firearm degree is not yet justified
 

Jeff Hayes

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Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

No need to apologize, this is what these discussions are for. Learn from this so that you do not make a mistake you will regret. Remember many others will read this and never comment but they will have learned as well.
 

gogodawgs

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Messages
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Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Now that I'm re-reading the article I'm going to apologize to Jeff and admit he was right.

The first time I read it I had already head a radio spot about the incident that implied the man directly threatened he had a gun, which as we now know was incorrect, yes under the circumstances listed in the article use of force, at least to the firearm degree is not yet justified

What people should be considering in light of this story is...

Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

Where is the nearest exit?

Where is the nearest cover?

Do you carry pepper spray?

Do you approach the person and restrain them?
 

BigDave

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What people should be considering in light of this story is...

Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

Where is the nearest exit?

Where is the nearest cover?

Do you carry pepper spray?

Do you approach the person and restrain them?


This is what most forums and people when discussing self defense bypass and go
directly to the last resort, the gun...
 

Jeff Hayes

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What people should be considering in light of this story is...

Where do you sit in class, a restaurant, movie theater?

Where is the nearest exit?

Where is the nearest cover?

Do you carry pepper spray?

Do you approach the person and restrain them?


+1
 
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