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Sheriff's advice when OCer enters public building: Call the police

bigt8261

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
181
Location
Grand Rapids
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rap...vice_when_visitor_w.html#incart_river_default

In a memo to the City Commission, City Manager Patrick Waterman wrote that “the likelihood of this happening is high given that many 2nd Amendment promoters are currently ‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.” For example, Grand Rapids Police are being sued for how they responded to a caller’s concern about a man who legally open-carried on the street while talking and singing to himself.

You may politely contact Hudsonville City Manager Patrick Waterman HERE to tell him why you OC.

Other municipalities are taking notice of what is going on in GR. Whether they follow the law because they want to respect our rights, or whether they are afraid of a lawsuit means little to me as long as they are following the law.
 

bigt8261

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Jan 16, 2013
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Location
Grand Rapids
My open letter to the City Manager:

Hello City Manager Waterman,

I am writing to you in response to recent comments that you were quoted as making in an MLive article HERE. Specifically, that open carriers are "testing the waters" and are "looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit".

Sir, with due respect, I believe that you have us misunderstood.

Speaking as a leadership member for an organization that represents Open Carriers, I assure you that we are indeed not looking for a lawsuit. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Myself and other members of my organization put forward a great deal of work to educated both sides in an effort to see legal action avoided. We believe the laws surrounding open carry in Michigan are clear and well established, and it is our goal to educate both citizens and government on what those laws plainly say and mean.

As an open carrier, I open carry primarily as a means of protecting myself, wife and child. Open carry has repeatedly been shown to deter crime before it starts, as opposed to stopping crime after it starts as carrying concealed is more closely related to. This is exactly why police officers generally open carry. I, in no way, wish to be someone that successfully used their firearm to defend themselves or their family, but rather, it is my sincere wish that I end up someone who never had to defend themselves with their firearm.

Furthermore, I am a law abiding citizen, and that does not change based on some imaginary line that I have crossed, just as a criminal is not deterred by that very same line. As a potential victim, I have the misfortune of not being the one that decides when or where I will become said victim.

Again, myself and Michigan Open Carry seek to educate not only those that must follow the law, but also those that that are tasked with enforcing the law. The majority of the time, municipalities that we reach out to are willing to work with us and respect the laws of this State. Other times, some we reach out to possess an ideological stubbornness that might cause them to believe that they are better off not following State law. Often times the actions of the stubborn ideological few lead not only to their own detriment, but to the detriment of citizens of the municipality and the State.

If you would like more information, have any questions, or ever need assistance, please do not hesitate to ask.

Sincerely,
Tom Lambert
Assistant Legislative Director
Assistant SW Regional Coordinator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
This is what I would expect from any government official in Ottawa County. They are getting their "training" from the same sheriff whose gun board is very quick to deny or revoke CPLs. This is also the same sheriff who was consulted in dealing with the "Chris Fetters incident" in Grand Haven a few years ago. Grand Haven had to pay an OCer because of his advice to their city's PD. Also, a deputy under this person's "leadership" became enraged that the convenience store in which I was OCing wanted me to stay...even after the deputy was pleading very loudly that the clerk should request that I be removed for Open Carrying. She refused. :)

I'll continue to do as I've done for years. I'll OC when and where I choose to. The opinion of the sheriff is just that...his opinion.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Dear Mr. Waterman,

In a recent article on mlive.com, you were quoted as saying ‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.”

Nothing could be further from the truth. The decision to carry concealed, or openly, is completely dependant on a umber of factors, some of which include:

Comfort- intentionally dressing to conceal a firearm, particularly in warmer weather, necessitates additional layers of clothing
Legality (age)- there exists an old law that precludes individuals between 18 and 21 from receiving a concealed pistol license; mind you that includes active military and veterans.
Legality (CPL waiting times)- currently Ottawa and Kent County have egregious wait times for individuals to receive a CPL.
Tactical advantage- some hold that a sidearm, unencumbered by additional layers of clothing, provides quicker access in the event of an actual emergency. Other believe (rightly so) that it acts as a deterrent to victimization. Although there is only anecdotal evidence, it also is difficult to obtain data on crimes that do not happen due to the presence of a lawfully armed citizen.

To suggest that they are looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit is offensive. Although there are, indeed, some attention seekers who run 'reverse stings' on corrupt law enforcement officials, they are very rare. I am not aware of any in the West Michigan area. The cost of litigation for these types of suits generally consume the meager awards one may expect. It's just not profitable.

For myself, I don't take additional steps to intentionally conceal my sidearm; it is irrelevant to me if it is concealed or exposed. I'm not looking to shock anyone, or garner unwanted attention. By the same token, I do not feel the need to have the 'element of surprise' in a encounter with the criminal element here in Grand Rapids.

My wife and I both carry, but before you condemn us, you should know we are both missionaries involved in rescuing battered women. We carry to protect ourselves and our charges. Previously, I was worship leader and security at a small local church. Yes, I carried concealed during services, so as not to distract from any move of the Spirit.

Please take the time to walk a mile in our shoes before you make blanket statements about 'open carriers'; you couldn't be further from the truth.

Sincerely,
Timothy M' Beahan
 

DeSchaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
537
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Hudsonville also is exploring response plans for city staff in the event a shooter opens fire in a public building. The city plans to work with an architect on possible building modifications that could enhance safety, Waterman said.

Oh I just LOVE this part. Lets see... *opens his politician decoder index* oh ok... it means "create bolt holes for all the grand poo-bahs while sheeple serve as meat shields." Wake up Hudsonville. Throw these bums out on their useless backsides.
 

OC for ME

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White Oak Plantation
Dear Mr. Waterman,

In a recent article on mlive.com, you were quoted as saying "...‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.”

Mr. Waterman, if your police department followed state law, and engaged in "good police practices", like, not using their "authority" unreasonably and likely unlawfully, then there would likely never ever be another lawsuit. Mr. Waterman, essentially, it is your fault that the city's employees are causing you to expend funds to defend their unlawful acts. Your employees continue to violate policy and the law, so too must you continue to expend additional city funds to provide redress to harmed citizens.

Respectfully
Mr. Common Freaking Sense
 

bigt8261

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
181
Location
Grand Rapids
Dear Mr. Waterman,

In a recent article on mlive.com, you were quoted as saying "...‘testing the waters’ in many public buildings, looking for an opportunity to file a lawsuit.”

Mr. Waterman, if your police department followed state law, and engaged in "good police practices", like, not using their "authority" unreasonably and likely unlawfully, then there would likely never ever be another lawsuit. Mr. Waterman, essentially, it is your fault that the city's employees are causing you to expend funds to defend their unlawful acts. Your employees continue to violate policy and the law, so too must you continue to expend additional city funds to provide redress to harmed citizens.

Respectfully
Mr. Common Freaking Sense

City Manager Waterman is from Hudsonville, not Grand Rapids. I am currently not aware of any issues with Hudsonville.
 

OC for ME

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12,452
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White Oak Plantation
City Manager Waterman is from Hudsonville, not Grand Rapids. I am currently not aware of any issues with Hudsonville.
Did you read the op? Click the linked story?

From the OP's linked story, opening paragraph.
HUDSONVILLE, MI – Call the police if someone open-carries a gun into a public building: That's the advice the Ottawa County Sheriff’s Office is giving to Hudsonville city staff during trainings this month.
Not sure where to go after this.
 

bigt8261

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
181
Location
Grand Rapids
Mr. Waterman, essentially, it is your fault that the city's employees are causing you to expend funds to defend their unlawful acts. Your employees continue to violate policy and the law, so too must you continue to expend additional city funds to provide redress to harmed citizens.

What unlawful acts and violated policies/laws are you speaking of? As I said, I am not aware of any issues in Hudsonville.
 

Raggs

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Jul 18, 2012
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Wild Wild West Michigan
What unlawful acts and violated policies/laws are you speaking of? As I said, I am not aware of any issues in Hudsonville.

I agree, as far as I know Hudsonville police have not been involved in a lawsuit about OC, Ottawa county or Grand Haven has been as I recall because of an incident in Grand Haven.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I can't help you at this point.
The guy from Hudsonville is using the Grand Rapids suit as a reference. Hudsonville is not being sued. So your letter stating that it is Mr. Watermans fault they are spending taxpayer money is incorrect.

You wrote: "Mr. Waterman, if your police department followed state law, and engaged in "good police practices", like, not using their "authority" unreasonably and likely unlawfully, then there would likely never ever be another lawsuit. Mr. Waterman, essentially, it is your fault that the city's employees are causing you to expend funds to defend their unlawful acts. Your employees continue to violate policy and the law, so too must you continue to expend additional city funds to provide redress to harmed citizens."
 

FreeInAZ

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Oct 15, 2012
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Secret Bunker
He meant well V. He's not from the area. Easy mistake to make. ;)

Damn non-MI subjects posting in MI threads! :p

ETA- "All hail the king err....I mean the tough nerd aka - tricky Rick S."

/sarcasm :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Why not take the nice Sheriff's advice? We want to be cooperative, right?

If for some reason you have a need to visit a public building, give the nice man a call (non-emergency line, please) and tell him that you expect to be at ___ sometime between 2 and 2:45 depending on traffic and you'll be dressed in ___ and ___ carrying a __." Explain that you're only calling for his convenience, not as a threat or warning, and so that he can schedule someone to be there should he so desire.
And call the next day
and the next
and every day that week
and month.

He wants to play a "We'll come and check you out every time game" then play da game. First one to get tired of it loses.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
I agree, as far as I know Hudsonville police have not been involved in a lawsuit about OC, Ottawa county or Grand Haven has been as I recall because of an incident in Grand Haven.

Just a quick FYI: The incident in Grand Haven a few years ago was the Grand Haven Department of Public Safety. However, I believe that GHPD's violation of Mr Fetters rights was aided by the Ottawa County Sheriff Department and one of the Ottawa County prosecutors. The police agency that covers Hudsonville is the Ottawa County Sheriff's Department. Hudsonville used to, but no longer has, a city police department.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
 
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