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ready. aim. truth.

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,280
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
So, the open carry just happened to be seated in a position in the conference room where the actor playing the assailant highly trained, body-armor wearing SWAT officer/instructor "noticed" him first.

Suuuuure. My money says the "bad-guy" knew who the OCer was. And, even if he didn't, the advanced urban combat training (SWAT) put him high above your average nut-case with a gun.

And, all that aside, we hashed this to death years ago: OCers often OC as social activism, encouraging others to carry by personal, visible demonstration. Those who do made a calculation and decided to take that risk. Too bad the story's author's chose to scare others with a tilted scenario rather than let them decide for themselves by explaining both the pros and cons of OC.
 

Ken56

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
368
Location
Dandridge, TN
My take is training is training no matter what form it takes. I am not sure how effective these really are because there is the element of knowledge of what is about to happen. Attacks never happen when you expect them, so how "real world" can these be, plus, you know its make believe an no one is really in danger. I have been through various types of training, from flying to industrial safety to CPR and I do think its good for knowing what to expect.......from yourself and your response to a situation......to a limited degree. Panic kills. If you know you can count on a reasoned response from yourself and know you won't panic in an emergency situation I think goes farther than any preplanned put you in a room and at some point somebody is going to come in and play bad guy thing. Something is better than nothing I guess.
 

DeSchaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
537
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Firstly, I would love to know just how many bad guys get their hands on and use body armor. And secondly, anyone that's been shot while wearing body armor knows that it does exactly jack to minimize the KINETIC energy. They may not penetrate, but with most real rounds, a person WILL be staggered and disrupted. This test was rigged for failure from the start.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,337
Location
Valhalla
We've been down this road before...many times.

Urban myth, a lie repeated often enough..., distorts reality, everybody is an expert, etc., etc., etc.

Training and planning ahead are good. When the SHTF don't rely on it being in accordance with what you expect; especially if the training is slanted or loaded too much to one side.


Still looking for the normal, everyday OCer preemptively taken out.
 
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notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

And that's from an actual news event, not a scripted mock-up done by an anti-carry yellow journalism editorialist.
Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

Use simmunitions not airsoft.


It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.


People always looked at me a little strange when I would choose the seat in the conference room as far for the door as possible and position myself with my right side away fro the door.

Before I got the corner office (in a secure building - card access, on a secure floor - limited card access, in a secure section - again restricted to only those working in that section and some of our superiors), I got to select my own 'tactically' superior cubicle too: Right next to a nice little cubbie with a couple filing cabinets stuffed full of ream after ream of paper for the big ass copy machine that sat right next to it, plus a straight shot to the stairwell door (right next to the bathroom) and close to the hallway that led to the other side of the building.

And of course I ignore the 'no guns' rules.

I'm not paranoid, just prepared.
 
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HPmatt

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
1,460
Location
Dallas
Article to me shows the civilians did a very good job - 3/4 killed attacker in most scenarios.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

nobama

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
756
Location
, ,
Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

Use simmunitions not airsoft.


It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.
Agree, total BS!!! How many petty thieves are gonna be "looking" for someone OCing when they go into a place? And what are the odds of the attacker walking into a place and the OC person is lined up perfectly in the line of sight for the attacker to notice? and if he did notice, does that attacker want to be charged with murder or maybe go to a softer target.
 

g21sfpistol

Banned
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
255
Location
iowa
Yep, the whole "I spotted the openly carried gun right away, yeah, BS! The guy's hot a helmet on his head and camera strapped to his chest.

They've got frickin helmets and goggles on! Using unfamiliar pistols. Give them some time to become accustomed to the gear and the location for a day or two, the pistol a few weeks before. Now set it up again.

This time put helmets and cameras on everyone. Make it a double blind test. Shooter does not know defender or where he's going to be. Use a shooter with something less than 22 years SWAT/instructor experience. Heck get volunteers for both 'sides'

Use simmunitions not airsoft.


It's BS just like the ABC one several years ago.

But even this all said and done, even if the shooter was able to kill all of them every time, that still does not support the banning or regulation of firearms possession.
but even the CCers had the mask and no one else. OC deters crime, as im told here, so why didnt he just leave?
 

g21sfpistol

Banned
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
255
Location
iowa
We've been down this road before...many times.

Urban myth, a lie repeated often enough..., distorts reality, everybody is an expert, etc., etc., etc.

Training and planning ahead are good. When the SHTF don't rely on it being in accordance with what you expect; especially if the training is slanted or loaded too much to one side.


Still looking for the normal, everyday OCer preemptively taken out.
you have been down this road here on the threads. so just because its "discussed" here, where everyone agrees with you, doesnt make it fact.
 

g21sfpistol

Banned
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
255
Location
iowa
So, the open carry just happened to be seated in a position in the conference room where the actor playing the assailant highly trained, body-armor wearing SWAT officer/instructor "noticed" him first.

Suuuuure. My money says the "bad-guy" knew who the OCer was. And, even if he didn't, the advanced urban combat training (SWAT) put him high above your average nut-case with a gun.

And, all that aside, we hashed this to death years ago: OCers often OC as social activism, encouraging others to carry by personal, visible demonstration. Those who do made a calculation and decided to take that risk. Too bad the story's author's chose to scare others with a tilted scenario rather than let them decide for themselves by explaining both the pros and cons of OC.
the same swat guy went up against everyone, not just the OCer. so no one was treated differently.
 

g21sfpistol

Banned
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
255
Location
iowa
Firstly, I would love to know just how many bad guys get their hands on and use body armor. And secondly, anyone that's been shot while wearing body armor knows that it does exactly jack to minimize the KINETIC energy. They may not penetrate, but with most real rounds, a person WILL be staggered and disrupted. This test was rigged for failure from the start.
ever wore body armor? ever been shot? i have worn it and have been shot, you dont always notice that much kenitic energy when your hear is pumping. and a lot of bad guys have worn body armor. BOA shoot out in LA and the movie theature shooter in colorado recently, just to name 2 right off the top of my head. google might tell you more.
 

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Florida
but even the CCers had the mask and no one else. OC deters crime, as im told here, so why didnt he just leave?
Trying to be funny or cute? It was a staged event, the hired cop's job was to 'kill' the participants, he knew exactly who was armed and where they were, not even close to real life.

Deterring crime is referring to the 99.44% of crime that happens. "Street' crime: Random(ish) level robberies, holdups, etc.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,337
Location
Valhalla
Nothing to explain yet. Details needed are severally lacking.

you have been down this road here on the threads. so just because its "discussed" here, where everyone agrees with you, doesnt make it fact.
Not everyone agrees with me.

What is a "fact" is that any confirmed/proven such event would when compared to the sum of all non-events end up looking something like this: .000001% or less.

Bear in mind that when the gauntlet is thrown publicly at my feet, I will pick it up. You have been here long enough to recognize that + our interaction has made that abundantly clear.
 
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davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,170
Location
earth's crust
Article to me shows the civilians did a very good job - 3/4 killed attacker in most scenarios.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Goal of any encounter is to survive. I doubt anyone would go into such an environment ... as HPmatt noted, he ended up dead.

And there is no statement of what the guy's intention was ... but in any event, he's doing it wrong.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,224
Location
northern wis
I have instructed and participated in dozens of scenario based training and a lot of force and force training.

It is not hard to design a scenario that is a win win or a lose lose.

Designing them to be realistic is very hard.

Unlike real encounters every body knows they are coming out alive.

Most very body knows what is properly going to happen to some extent.

It can be really good training or it can be bad training. Good training depends on the instructors and students to make the most of it.
 
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