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pulled over by a policeman

Fallschirjmäger

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In regards to IC 35-47-2-24, I'd recommend anyone who could afford to take a day off from work refuse to produce his/her license and then show up in court. If enough people did it, it would prove uneconomical (both cost and manpower) for the state to continue to bring such matters for court. The likely outcome in such cases the county solicitor would immediately seek nolle prosequi for the charges.

Failing that, the officer gets to waste his time in court for an afternoon instead of having to face the hazards of meeting and arresting criminals.

It's a win-win situation either way.

Fines and court fees will still apply...
What fine would apply for producing the license in court, thereby invalidating the charge?
 

OC for ME

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I have to disagree maverick. If a lac is yelling and upset he can escalate a situation just as an Leo can. But if a man who was once yelling and screaming then calms down on his on free will he then escalate a the situation.

I agree with the premise that even if he calms down the Leo can still escalate it or react a certain way. But the lac does have the ability to quell a situation.

For example if a lac is yelling and is being warned to calm down or stop yelling if they do so they have quelled the situation. This is not an uncommon thing to see.

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Telling (politely asking) a cop to stop yelling at me is a very bad bit of advice, especially from a cop. If a cop is yelling at me I ain't saying a damn thing, not a peep. Hands clearly visible and I'm moving slower that molasses in December.
 

WalkingWolf

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Telling (politely asking) a cop to stop yelling at me is a very bad bit of advice, especially from a cop. If a cop is yelling at me I ain't saying a damn thing, not a peep. Hands clearly visible and I'm moving slower that molasses in December.

You are on target, this is what I have been trying to get through, almost all of his postings are not Kosher with how reality as a police officer, or even sense for someone who is supposed to have had psychology training. Which in most states that training is part of BLET, and with a 20 week program I highly doubt there was none.

IMO we should stop giving this guy credit he did not earn, even in argument. A military police is not the same as civilian police, which I believe by his posts he is not even full time MP. He has as much time on his hands as I do, and I am currently not working, it just does not add up.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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What fine would apply for producing the license in court, thereby invalidating the charge?
It depends on how the law reads. If it is a violation to drive without physical possession of the license itself, then even producing it in court does not invalidate that violation.
It would be unfair of me to expect you to know the law of all the fifty states, so let's narrow it down a little.
You're a citizen of Ohio, so let's use that as our example.

What fines and court costs accrue to someone who proves a charge to not be true in an Ohio court?
Further, let's keep it narrowed down to driver's licenses as that's what you posted about.

Step up to the plate, Eye.

Parenthetically, I've got this wonderful idea about how to fully fund the court system. They encourage officers to cite for bogus infractions, maybe like 'eating a ham sandwich on Sunday'; something so easily disproved that the defendant need not even pay a lawyer to show up. The charge is found to be incorrect, the defendant is innocent and the court charges a couple thousand in 'court fees.'
 

OC for ME

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Molitor said police had advised VandenHeuvel’s wife after one incident to seek a restraining order, but said Wednesday that she had not obtained one. The chief called the shooting “a tragic event for everyone involved,” but said the outcome indicates “we train our officers well in decision-making under stress.”
Well, there are two witnesses, both cops.

End of story and no RO required.....anymore.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Telling (politely asking) a cop to stop yelling at me is a very bad bit of advice, especially from a cop. If a cop is yelling at me I ain't saying a damn thing, not a peep. Hands clearly visible and I'm moving slower that molasses in December.

Consider the source. The same poster advised a newcomer here with three posts to shoot at police.

Sarcastically offered or not, any posting like that is at the best irresponsible, and a flag to suspect whatever that poster puts up here.
 

Primus

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Telling (politely asking) a cop to stop yelling at me is a very bad bit of advice, especially from a cop. If a cop is yelling at me I ain't saying a damn thing, not a peep. Hands clearly visible and I'm moving slower that molasses in December.

Can you please highlight of the bold part where I said "tell a cop to stop yelling at you"?

What I said is you control YOU. And if YOU are yelling YOU can stop YOURSELF from yelling especially if they (cop) are repeatedly asking you to calm down. By YOU calming down YOU have DEescalated the situation.

Note: I use YOU in caps not as an attack or pointing you out personally but the stress the LAC role and not the cop role. There seems to me be some confusion in what I was saying. Instead of asking for clarification guys are just running with whatever makes it easier to bash about. Go figure....

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eye95

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It would be unfair of me to expect you to know the law of all the fifty states, so let's narrow it down a little.
You're a citizen of Ohio, so let's use that as our example.

What fines and court costs accrue to someone who proves a charge to not be true in an Ohio court?
Further, let's keep it narrowed down to driver's licenses as that's what you posted about.

Step up to the plate, Eye...

I pointed out that it depends how the law reads, specifically for the possibility that State laws differ and to encourage folks to check their State laws rather than make an assumption based upon what you wrote or anything I might say about Ohio law.

So, no, I won't step up to your metaphorical plate. I don't take assignments from others. If you wish to complete your own assignment, pick a State and have at it.


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<o>
 

eye95

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Consider the source. The same poster advised a newcomer here with three posts to shoot at police.

Sarcastically offered or not, any posting like that is at the best irresponsible, and a flag to suspect whatever that poster puts up here.

Cite please. If the incident is the one of which I am thinking, he gave no such advice. He made a clearly (to anyone paying attention) sarcastic statement.


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<o>
 

eye95

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Can you please highlight of the bold part where I said "tell a cop to stop yelling at you"?

What I said is you control YOU. And if YOU are yelling YOU can stop YOURSELF from yelling especially if they (cop) are repeatedly asking you to calm down. By YOU calming down YOU have DEescalated the situation.

Note: I use YOU in caps not as an attack or pointing you out personally but the stress the LAC role and not the cop role. There seems to me be some confusion in what I was saying. Instead of asking for clarification guys are just running with whatever makes it easier to bash about. Go figure....

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We can only control ourselves in a situation. We hope to influence the behavior of others, but we cannot control them.

When we remain the adult in the situation, we either draw the other party into adulthood--or make him look like the total ass he is being. Either way, it's cool. :B


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<o>
 

Fallschirjmäger

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I pointed out that it depends how the law reads, specifically for the possibility that State laws differ and to encourage folks to check their State laws rather than make an assumption based upon what you wrote or anything I might say about Ohio law.

So, no, I won't step up to your metaphorical plate. I don't take assignments from others. If you wish to complete your own assignment, pick a State and have at it.
Moving on.
:banana:
 

Primus

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We can only control ourselves in a situation. We hope to influence the behavior of others, but we cannot control them.

When we remain the adult in the situation, we either draw the other party into adulthood--or make him look like the total ass he is being. Either way, it's cool. :B


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<o>

I agree and that's exactly what I was trying to say whether I some how jacked it up or not. You can control part of the situation especially if your using a recording device. We've seen videos of LACs freaking out and yelling swearing etc. And it never looks good. We've also seen the videos of the leos looking like a total a** because he's doing the same behavior. You control your behavior no one else.

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OC for ME

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Can you please highlight of the bold part where I said "tell a cop to stop yelling at you"?

<snip>
OK.

But the lac does have the ability to quell a situation.
No, the LAC does not have the ability to "quell" the situation. Nor should he be burdened to do so. I hold the burden to not contribute to a "tense" situation. Thus my plan to shut my pie-hole and move slower than molasses in December. This is what I can do.

Cops are professionals and I expect nothing less than 100% professionalism. This is how cops gain and hold my highest level of respect.

I am burdened by a yelling cop (and you it seems), to simply stand there and "take it", his verbal abuses, in a attempt to "calm the situation" by being a verbal punching bag for that thug cop.....by being the adult in the room. If I am expected to be the adult, and i am the adult, what does that say about the yelling cop and his fitness to remain a cop. What is expected of him?

Gaining redress later is too late as far as I am concerned. I will attempt to prevent further abuses via the appropriate channels, but holding that cop truly accountable for what he has done to me is merely a pipe dream these days.

Former "Officer" Harless, of OH, brings to mind the prototypical yelling cop. What happened to him for his behavior, his death threats, his fighting words? Not a damn thing of any consequence. And NO, he losing his job does not "cut it" with me.

Anyway, the bottom line is the burden is placed on me, the LAC, by LE, to be the adult in the room, and you prove my point by your post.

You do not strike me as a "yeller" and for that I think the citizenry in your jurisdiction should be thankful.

Be safe in your daily comings and goings.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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~SNIPPED~

Anyway, the bottom line is the burden is placed on me, the LAC, by LE, to be the adult in the room, and you prove my point by your post.

The Harliss example is a good one. Youtube is loaded with incidents of police attempting to incite a reaction by verbally assaulting citizens, their reactions to screaming and yelling used to trump up charges and initiate use of force.


You do not strike me as a "yeller" and for that I think the citizenry in your jurisdiction should be thankful.

Be safe in your daily comings and goings.

There is no evidence to support that Pinus is a cop, let alone one that does or does not yell. In my estimation, anyone that supports antagonistic, aggressive and disrespectful behavior under the color of law is a thug.

And where does it say in our social contract that "the citizenry in your jurisdiction" should be thankful that someone portrays themselves [when it serves them] not to be brutal and oppressive? I don't feel all that "thankful" when the sewage department does what they are paid to do....get the sewage flowing. That's their job, as sh_tty as it may get, they get paid for it. I do notice there are not any local reports of the sanitation department beating, tasing, raping or killing our children because they have a hard job. They just seem to do the job, and if something else comes up, they go do that.
 

Primus

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OK.

No, the LAC does not have the ability to "quell" the situation. Nor should he be burdened to do so. I hold the burden to not contribute to a "tense" situation. Thus my plan to shut my pie-hole and move slower than molasses in December. This is what I can do.

Cops are professionals and I expect nothing less than 100% professionalism. This is how cops gain and hold my highest level of respect.

I am burdened by a yelling cop (and you it seems), to simply stand there and "take it", his verbal abuses, in a attempt to "calm the situation" by being a verbal punching bag for that thug cop.....by being the adult in the room. If I am expected to be the adult, and i am the adult, what does that say about the yelling cop and his fitness to remain a cop. What is expected of him?

Gaining redress later is too late as far as I am concerned. I will attempt to prevent further abuses via the appropriate channels, but holding that cop truly accountable for what he has done to me is merely a pipe dream these days.

Former "Officer" Harless, of OH, brings to mind the prototypical yelling cop. What happened to him for his behavior, his death threats, his fighting words? Not a damn thing of any consequence. And NO, he losing his job does not "cut it" with me.

Anyway, the bottom line is the burden is placed on me, the LAC, by LE, to be the adult in the room, and you prove my point by your post.

You do not strike me as a "yeller" and for that I think the citizenry in your jurisdiction should be thankful.

Be safe in your daily comings and goings.

When I said you can quell the situation I was referring to you controlling your own behavior to help diffuse the situation. As I said if you are upset and wound up then you can quell it by calming down. We've all seen the videos of the LAC getting angry and upset and either yelling or arguing about something. In those particular situations , especially if the officer is asking you to calm down, the. By calming down you again can diffuse the situation.

I agree 100% that the officers should be professional and should not be screaming swearing belittling etc. For no reason. Sometimes a raise voice is needed jut as sometimes a swear words may come out in speaking but it gives no excuse to belittle or berate or scream at someone for no reason.

You are also correct that if your in a situation where you have a bad one screaming or doing these things then at the time you have to "take it" and hope for regress later. As they say take the high road. Especially if the incident is being recorded. The LAC saying "yes sir no sir can I please leave sir" and the officer screaming obscenities will go. Long way in any type of suit.

Again I agree you cant control the other person all you can control yourself and hope they go off your cue.


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Fallschirjmäger

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According to the nice people on the police-centric forums, the yelling, profanities, insults and deadly threats aren't anything personal. They're just a "shock and compliance tactic" solely used to solicit cooperation from the recipient.

"Officer safety", y'know.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

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There is no evidence to support that Pinus is a cop, let alone one that does or does not yell. In my estimation, anyone that supports antagonistic, aggressive and disrespectful behavior under the color of law is a thug.
He states that he is a cop and I take him at his word. I am not a cop, and have yet to be accused of telling a lie on that point. His views and stated acts may not be to my liking on some points but I will not call him a liar.....or mangle his screen name. If he makes a false statement that can be refuted with fact(s) then I will refute his claim(s).

And where does it say in our social contract that "the citizenry in your jurisdiction" should be thankful that someone portrays themselves [when it serves them] not to be brutal and oppressive? I don't feel all that "thankful" when the sewage department does what they are paid to do....get the sewage flowing. That's their job, as sh_tty as it may get, they get paid for it. I do notice there are not any local reports of the sanitation department beating, tasing, raping or killing our children because they have a hard job. They just seem to do the job, and if something else comes up, they go do that.
I reject your using my post as a conduit to insult Primus. I reject your using my post as a conduit to bash cops in general, that being a rules violation is besides the point.

I thinking Primus not being a yeller, or a Harless, does indeed mean that the citizenry in his jurisdiction should be thankful, they could have a "Harless" to contend with. It is a "royal thankfulness" not a "thank Primus."
 

OC for ME

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When I said you can quell the situation I was referring to you controlling your own behavior to help diffuse the situation. As I said if you are upset and wound up then you can quell it by calming down. We've all seen the videos of the LAC getting angry and upset and either yelling or arguing about something. In those particular situations , especially if the officer is asking you to calm down, the. By calming down you again can diffuse the situation.

I agree 100% that the officers should be professional and should not be screaming swearing belittling etc. For no reason. Sometimes a raise voice is needed jut as sometimes a swear words may come out in speaking but it gives no excuse to belittle or berate or scream at someone for no reason.

You are also correct that if your in a situation where you have a bad one screaming or doing these things then at the time you have to "take it" and hope for regress later. As they say take the high road. Especially if the incident is being recorded. The LAC saying "yes sir no sir can I please leave sir" and the officer screaming obscenities will go. Long way in any type of suit.

Again I agree you cant control the other person all you can control yourself and hope they go off your cue.

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Agreed on all points but one. I am not afforded the opportunity to "request" that the cop calm down, well I could attempt to calm him down, but THAT is a "bad career move."

I really dislike being made to "just take it", as prideful as I am and also me having to pay upfront to gain redress. All the while hoping that I get reimbursed for my efforts to corral a thug cop when his LEA will not. Government workers are "at will" employees and thug cops of that type are not a one time thug and then a simple talking to fixes the issue. Thugs are thugs.

It is a affront to my personal liberty, and my personal finances by the way. Why must I, or any citizen, bear the burdens to fix from the outside what is more easily fixed from within. Every liberty centric cop should be working to rid their LEA of those few who taint that LEA in a negative light. Good cops never get a second thought, even though they should. Thug cops always gain the limelight and they should.....only once.
 
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