Positive LEO Experience at Sheetz Roanoke after drawing weapon, And a question.

[Doughnutman]

My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.

Good job.

To answer your second question, punching someone can be a deadly act (especially repeatedly) So you stopped someone from using deadly force by presenting your firearm.

 

[Doughnutman]

ISTM you made the situation worse by intervening in a non-life threatening situation by introducing a firearm. This is the kind of thing that people cite when they say civilians shouldn't have guns. Had you not had a gun and just run up to the car and said 'I'm calling 911' the guy would have likely stopped and gotten out and walked home.HTH

What if you walked up and said you were going to call 911 and he started beating you to death? Would you rather have a cellphone in your hand or a firearm?

 

[Maverick9]

What if you walked up and said you were going to call 911 and he started beating you to death? Would you rather have a cellphone in your hand or a firearm?

I didn't say 'disarm yourself'. But maybe that's a good reason to stay in your car. What good are you to your loved ones if you stop and get out of your car and draw down on people inside a car having a confusing conflict?

If I were the cops and this guy told me this story, I'd arrest him for brandishing. He drew down on an unarmed person.

But I think the story is largely false. Why? Look at the title. It was NOT a positive encounter and anyone who reads OCDO knows that having your gun serial number is not going to be viewed as such. I think the story was a type of baiting - making people say 'oh ok, you saved a life, got a BG caught and a kudo from a LEO so it's really NOT SO BAD to have your serial number run'. ALSO how would the guy know they ran the number. Cops rarely tell someone what they're doing.

And the story is one of hallucinating a woman and small child and a knife inside a car that really held two men, even after the OP walked up to the car for a close second look.

Did he call 911 first, then get his gun out of the car? THAT ALONE is bad judgment. He could have been shot by a passerby. The big guy could have been an undercover cop.

Then we're to believe the cops said 'good job' and they hadn't even caught the big guy who walked off, until later.

 

[TFred]

To answer your second question, punching someone can be a deadly act (especially repeatedly) So you stopped someone from using deadly force by presenting your firearm.

Let's not forget that in the aftermath of the Newtown shooting, it has been revealed that the latest FBI statistics confirm that THREE TIMES more murders are committed with bare hands or feet that with rifles of all kinds.

Statistically speaking this person in the car was at much more risk of being murdered than if the person was pointing an "ugly black rifle" at them.

TFred

 

[love4guns]

I often OC or Conceal (I do have a CHP) on my person when it is just me, as many of my friends, do support guns but do not agree with carrying them every where. But I always keep a 9mm in my car, in a holster in my door panel.
After taking my terminally ill mother to ride in a New Camaro at Berglund (It was on her bucket list and those guys really helped me out) we were coming down Williamson, and I notice this guy (About 6 4, 250-300lbs) , just pounding as hard as he could inside on a passenger side of the car, thru the window, onto what looked like a child and a woman in the driver seat, just screaming for help. I pulled in real quick, jumped out of my car, assessed the scene, and the guy looked like he was stabbing inside the car, and this is when I noticed how big he was. So I double backed to my car real quick, grabbed the 9mm, and with safety on (I have always been taught, unless your about to pull the trigger, the safety stays on) I instructed the gun to get off of him, get on his knees, and face on the pavement. He semi-Complied with the knees and pavement, but end result, it stopped the fight, then fled. when I put my weapon in my waistband.
Turns out just a fight between to men, but it looked alot worse.
Being the EMT that I am, I'm worried about the guy because he got atleast 6 hits in before I could end the situation.
The guy decides to call the police, so we pull into parking spaces, I clear my weapon, and lock it back, police gets on scene, at first they were all like hands in the air, get on the ground don't effin move etc etc. So they get the weapon, Grab my ID, CHP etc, get the guy's story, and then they find out I just broke it up, and told me "get over here, good job man" and they gave my weapon back to me before the reports were even taking, after calling and making sure it was a legal fire arm. Took Reports, and good from there, we left.

My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.

My unsolicited advice is be very careful of what you post on the Internet

 

[palerider116]

I urge caution. The officer may say its righteous. But the other involved character can push the issue by swearing out a warrant for brandishing. Then you will most likely have the Commonwealth's Attorney office prosecuting the case. You are rolling the dice on an anti-gun prosecutor and/or judge.

 

[peter nap]

I urge caution. The officer may say its righteous. But the other involved character can push the issue by swearing out a warrant for brandishing. Then you will most likely have the Commonwealth's Attorney office prosecuting the case. You are rolling the dice on an anti-gun prosecutor and/or judge.

I said wasn't going to Monday Morning Quarterback him and I won't PR....but you've always provided level headed posts from the LE side. I'd be interested in how you would advise a Non Leo to handle that particular incident based on the OP's description???

 

[palerider116]

PN,

My advice is this: when you draw down on someone as a non-LEO, you should be justified in shooting them. This may be drastic sounding, but a gun isn't a conversation piece. Pointing a gun, pulling the trigger, and shooting someone is the greatest of all seizures. You may wound them, permanently disable them, or kill them. You have seized their person in the most violent of manners.

It may be justified. Maybe not...

As a LEO, I have non-lethal measures I can switch to as the situation unfolds. In this situation, if the call came in as a stabbing in progress, and if I observed the actions consistent with that, absolutely it would have been a draw down and challenge. But the OP ran into a problem: the encounter was not as "drastic" as first believed. If this guy decided to be a "bad ass" and push the OP to see where his commitment was on pulling that trigger, it would have been bad. If I determined there was no weapon in play, I would need to holster my weapon and transition to an appropriate level of force to address the threat.

Law abiding citizens (and bad guys!) usually aren't so equipped. I usually carry OC with me off duty so I can have some less lethal platform to address a threat accordingly. If I don't, then my stance is to observe and report unless deadly force is justified because that is the only weapon platform I have with me.

The hypotheticals can run all day: what if I created the situation where I felt it was necessary to shoot him because of physical size disparity? What if he felt he needed to disarm me because I just escalated a situation to deadly force levels? What if he has a gun and goes for the quick draw because he feels endangered by my brandishing? What if the person getting punched was the primary aggressor and had a weapon...did I just interfere with someone defending himself? It goes on and on.

It ain't worth it, not as a private citizen. If a LEO gets drug through the mud on a questionable shoot, a citizen will get it even even worse.

Observe and report. It's not easy even with any degree of training and experience in a tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving situation (Graham v. Connor, 1989).

If someone feels compelled to intervene or understand basic case law for police use of force, then I recommend looking long and hard at Tennessee v. Garner, 1985, and Graham v. Connor, 1989. The first one establishes the "reasonable officer standard" for deadly force and the latter applied the "reasonable officer standard" to all uses of force.

"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry

 

[palerider116]

And please know I am not trying to Monday Morning quarterback this issue.

These are thoughts that I have to compute while handling situations like this, and if I can point someone in a safer direction, I will.

I'm very glad EMTLovell prevailed in safety and legality.

 

[peter nap]

PN,

My advice is this: when you draw down on someone as a non-LEO, you should be justified in shooting them. This may be drastic sounding, but a gun isn't a conversation piece. Pointing a gun, pulling the trigger, and shooting someone is the greatest of all seizures. You may wound them, permanently disable them, or kill them. You have seized their person in the most violent of manners.

It may be justified. Maybe not...

As a LEO, I have non-lethal measures I can switch to as the situation unfolds. In this situation, if the call came in as a stabbing in progress, and if I observed the actions consistent with that, absolutely it would have been a draw down and challenge. But the OP ran into a problem: the encounter was not as "drastic" as first believed. If this guy decided to be a "bad ass" and push the OP to see where his commitment was on pulling that trigger, it would have been bad. If I determined there was no weapon in play, I would need to holster my weapon and transition to an appropriate level of force to address the threat.

Law abiding citizens (and bad guys!) usually aren't so equipped. I usually carry OC with me off duty so I can have some less lethal platform to address a threat accordingly. If I don't, then my stance is to observe and report unless deadly force is justified because that is the only weapon platform I have with me.

The hypotheticals can run all day: what if I created the situation where I felt it was necessary to shoot him because of physical size disparity? What if he felt he needed to disarm me because I just escalated a situation to deadly force levels? What if he has a gun and goes for the quick draw because he feels endangered by my brandishing? What if the person getting punched was the primary aggressor and had a weapon...did I just interfere with someone defending himself? It goes on and on.

It ain't worth it, not as a private citizen. If a LEO gets drug through the mud on a questionable shoot, a citizen will get it even even worse.

Observe and report. It's not easy even with any degree of training and experience in a tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving situation (Graham v. Connor, 1989).

If someone feels compelled to intervene or understand basic case law for police use of force, then I recommend looking long and hard at Tennessee v. Garner, 1985, and Graham v. Connor, 1989. The first one establishes the "reasonable officer standard" for deadly force and the latter applied the "reasonable officer standard" to all uses of force.

"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry

Thanks!

 

[TFred]

Thanks!

Agree with PN, thank you for providing a very informative and thought-provoking post.

TFred

 

[peter nap]

And please know I am not trying to Monday Morning quarterback this issue.

These are thoughts that I have to compute while handling situations like this, and if I can point someone in a safer direction, I will.

I'm very glad EMTLovell prevailed in safety and legality.

No, I asked for your opinion and recommendations.

I know what I'd have done but that's irrelevant. The idea is to educate.
User gives his perspective from a Lawyers point of view and it's always good to get a LEO's thoughts that don't involve trolling.

What you posted was well thought out and factual. No quarterbacking at all!

 

[palerider116]

No, I asked for your opinion and recommendations.

I know what I'd have done but that's irrelevant. The idea is to educate.
User gives his perspective from a Lawyers point of view and it's always good to get a LEO's thoughts that don't involve trolling.

What you posted was well thought out and factual. No quarterbacking at all!

Thanks!

I remember a couple of trolls from the LE profession who used to grace OCDO (probably the same person). It set a bad tempo early on.

Then there are the LE trolls in real life.

 

[user]

... My Question: I am 120lbs, 5 7, the offender was atleast 250lbs, 6 4, and it looked like he was stabbing a child in the car, did I do the right thing by drawing a weapon?
Question 2: What if I knew it was a simple physical fight, Would I still be justified in drawing a weapon to break it up.

1: yes.
2: no.

 

[Maverick9]

1: yes.
2: no.

I can't believe people are still giving advice on this question which is obviously made up. How did the guy know the 'attacker' was 6'4 250lbs inside a car when he failed despite two looks, one of them close up to discern it was two men and not a guy and a woman and a little girl?

NEVER play cop. Never draw your firearm unless it's to save your own life or your loved ones in a case of the gravest extreme where you may not retreat. (not to say you have to retreat in a grave circumstance, depending on Castle Law in your state). Never draw down (intending to shoot) on an unarmed man, because you'll go to PRISON for manslaughter at the minimum.

HTH

 

[love4guns]

I can't believe people are still giving advice



HTH

Are you aware who just gave that advice? Your questioning the top firearms attorney in the state..I welcome his advice when I can get it.

 

[CavTrooperCason]

PN,

My advice is this: when you draw down on someone as a non-LEO, you should be justified in shooting them. This may be drastic sounding, but a gun isn't a conversation piece. Pointing a gun, pulling the trigger, and shooting someone is the greatest of all seizures. You may wound them, permanently disable them, or kill them. You have seized their person in the most violent of manners.

It may be justified. Maybe not...

As a LEO, I have non-lethal measures I can switch to as the situation unfolds. In this situation, if the call came in as a stabbing in progress, and if I observed the actions consistent with that, absolutely it would have been a draw down and challenge. But the OP ran into a problem: the encounter was not as "drastic" as first believed. If this guy decided to be a "bad ass" and push the OP to see where his commitment was on pulling that trigger, it would have been bad. If I determined there was no weapon in play, I would need to holster my weapon and transition to an appropriate level of force to address the threat.

Law abiding citizens (and bad guys!) usually aren't so equipped. I usually carry OC with me off duty so I can have some less lethal platform to address a threat accordingly. If I don't, then my stance is to observe and report unless deadly force is justified because that is the only weapon platform I have with me.

The hypotheticals can run all day: what if I created the situation where I felt it was necessary to shoot him because of physical size disparity? What if he felt he needed to disarm me because I just escalated a situation to deadly force levels? What if he has a gun and goes for the quick draw because he feels endangered by my brandishing? What if the person getting punched was the primary aggressor and had a weapon...did I just interfere with someone defending himself? It goes on and on.

It ain't worth it, not as a private citizen. If a LEO gets drug through the mud on a questionable shoot, a citizen will get it even even worse.

Observe and report. It's not easy even with any degree of training and experience in a tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving situation (Graham v. Connor, 1989).

If someone feels compelled to intervene or understand basic case law for police use of force, then I recommend looking long and hard at Tennessee v. Garner, 1985, and Graham v. Connor, 1989. The first one establishes the "reasonable officer standard" for deadly force and the latter applied the "reasonable officer standard" to all uses of force.

"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry

Thanks for this post, in these situations remember the Wheel Of Force.

 

[palerider116]

The latest training is getting away from "use of force continuum" and using "use of force options." A continuum is a state of progression and some situations do escalate. Some situations require more force on the outset, so UoF options allows someone to choose the appropriate level of force without having to try ineffective levels first.

 

[peter nap]

I can't believe people are still giving advice on this question which is obviously made up. How did the guy know the 'attacker' was 6'4 250lbs inside a car when he failed despite two looks, one of them close up to discern it was two men and not a guy and a woman and a little girl?

NEVER play cop. Never draw your firearm unless it's to save your own life or your loved ones in a case of the gravest extreme where you may not retreat. (not to say you have to retreat in a grave circumstance, depending on Castle Law in your state). Never draw down (intending to shoot) on an unarmed man, because you'll go to PRISON for manslaughter at the minimum.

HTH

It may be made up but unfortunately it comes up here often....way too often, for real.
User answered it in two short words and after someone here gets arrested for doing exactly what he said not to, they will have to go to him or another less skilled attorney to stay out of jail.

 

[user]

Besides which, hypothetical questions are great learning tools. Most of what one does in law school is dealing with hypothetical questions, and all of the Bar exam is hypothetical. A lot of the questions people raise when I do the seminar are hypothetical: "What if I do this and Badguy does that?" kind of stuff.

I was a software engineer before I became an attorney. My code was always error-free; anyone who knows about programming knows that's next to impossible, but I did it routinely. It's because of testing hypothetical conditions. I always tested each chunk of code with reasonable data, but also with all the unreasonable data I could think of. Hypothetical questions test knowledge at the boundary conditions, and that's a good thing. We hone our understanding that way. And in this forum, it doesn't really matter whether the incident is real or hypothetical, it's a basis for discussion.

There is one thing that's important to understand about this particular hypothetical, though. The fact situation described included the following information: the defender reasonably perceived that a child was being threatened with an immediate and serious bodily injury by a knife-wielding attacker. We can assume that the child is "innocent", so there is no reason not to assume that the attacker is up to no good and that the child ought to be defended. (Not that there is any duty to do so.) But what if the unknown person being defended is not "innocent"?

Here's my favorite hypothetical on that point. You come upon two guys having a violent altercation outside the convenience store late one evening. Both are dressed in conventional clothes, and one of them pulls out a gun and threatens the other. Should you defend that other person? Add the following facts: the guy without a gun dropped his knife back in the convenience store when he tried to rob the cashier and the undercover cop, who'd been staking out the store because of reports of drug transactions, jumped him in the store. So the guy who pulled the gun was a cop in the process of arresting a violent felon. If you shoot that cop, guess who's going to be sitting on death row in a Virginia penitentiary for a while? Point is, you've got to be right when you jump in to someone elses' fight. And if you don't know what "right" is in that case, you'd best do nothing, or simply call the cops and report the incident.