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Police stake out gun store in Milwaukee.

Mike

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Traffic violation pretext stops only permit police to stop the vehicle and to issue the ticket - if the occupants refuse to talk to the police and refuse to allow a search of the car, no gun will be found unless they are dumb enough to lay it in plain view. If the vehicle and occupants are delayed more than a reasonable time needed to write the ticket, they can sue for damages.
 

Flipper

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I wonder how the good citizens of West Milwaukee feels about Milwaukee running covert operations in their city? Covert operations today, annexation tommorrow.
 

Hillmann

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Is a straw perchus illegal on the part of the original gun store? Is it even illegal on the part of the middle man if they are selling a handgun to someone under 21, or selling to someone who they don't know is a fellon?
 

Interceptor_Knight

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Hillmann wrote:
Is a straw perchus illegal on the part of the original gun store? Is it even illegal on the part of the middle man if they are selling a handgun to someone under 21, or selling to someone who they don't know is a fellon?

A straw purchase hinges on the intent of the person filling out the 4473. Legally proving knowledge by the FFL of a straw purchase taking place is difficult if not impossible, that is why the sting goes after the customers.If it can be proven that the felon/otherwise prohibited person recruited the person who filled out the 4473 to to so on their behalf then they can make a charge of a straw purchase taking place. Why would you purchase a handgun for someone else if they are legally able to do so themselves? I actually have several reasons but they have to do with gifts, logistics, etc... These exceptions can apply to someone between the ages of 18 and 20 receiving the handgun also.
 

Hillmann

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Hillmann wrote:
Is a straw perchus illegal on the part of the original gun store? Is it even illegal on the part of the middle man if they are selling a handgun to someone under 21, or selling to someone who they don't know is a fellon?

A straw purchase hinges on the intent of the person filling out the 4473. Legally proving knowledge by the FFL of a straw purchase taking place is difficult if not impossible, that is why the sting goes after the customers.If it can be proven that the felon/otherwise prohibited person recruited the person who filled out the 4473 to to so on their behalf then they can make a charge of a straw purchase taking place. Why would you purchase a handgun for someone else if they are legally able to do so themselves? I actually have several reasons but they have to do with gifts, logistics, etc... These exceptions can apply to someone between the ages of 18 and 20 receiving the handgun also.
I can think of several reasons, but my qusetion isnt why would someone do it, my question is,is a straw purches illegal on the part of the gun store? Is it illegal on the part of the middle man if he dosen't know the buyer is a fellon?
 

Interceptor_Knight

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Hillmann wrote:
I can think of several reasons, but my qusetion isnt why would someone do it, my question is,is a straw purches illegal on the part of the gun store? Is it illegal on the part of the middle man if he dosen't know the buyer is a fellon?


The first question on the 4473 is to the effect:

1. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm?

If you answerNO then the FFL can not transfer it to you as it meets the strict legal definition of a straw buy.


If you are truly gifting it, then you can still legally answer YES. You are buying it for yourself and you plan to give it as a gift to someone else at some later date. Many people have done this legally when gifting a gun to a child, spouse, parent, friend, etc.....

I can't think of a better Birthday present than a gun....:dude:
 

Hillmann

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Hillmann wrote:
I can think of several reasons, but my qusetion isnt why would someone do it, my question is,is a straw purches illegal on the part of the gun store? Is it illegal on the part of the middle man if he dosen't know the buyer is a fellon?


The first question on the 4473 is to the effect:

1. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm?

If you answerNO then the FFL can not transfer it to you as it meets the strict legal definition of a straw buy.


If you are truly gifting it, then you can still legally answer YES. You are buying it for yourself and you plan to give it as a gift to someone else at some later date. Many people have done this legally when gifting a gun to a child, spouse, parent, friend, etc.....

I can't think of a better Birthday present than a gun....:dude:
What is a 4473? Is that for all gun or just handguns. I am being serous about that question. I have never bought a gun through a dealer other than blackpowder repoductions and they have no paperwork.
 

Brass Magnet

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Hillmann wrote:
What is a 4473? Is that for all gun or just handguns. I am being serous about that question. I have never bought a gun through a dealer other than blackpowder repoductions and they have no paperwork.
It's the form you fill out for long guns or handguns. It's kept with the dealer for 20 years and the ATF can call the dealer to find out who they sold it to if the serial number comes up anywhere. Kind of like privitization of registration. :uhoh:
 

Nutczak

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Hillmann wrote:
What is a 4473? Is that for all gun or just handguns. I am being serous about that question. I have never bought a gun through a dealer other than blackpowder repoductions and they have no paperwork.

it is the paperwork you must fill out when purchasing any modern firearm from a licensed dealer, they use the answers on that questionairewhen they call the FBI contact point for the NICSinstant background check.
The person on the other end of the phone does a quick search on your information and gives one of 3 answers to the dealer.You either get the purchase approved, denied, or delayed. Delays me be as short as 10-15 minutes, or in my case a week or longer for any purchase wether it is a long gun or handgun. if it is a handgun, the dealer still must wait 48 hours after the NICS approval to transfer the firearm to you.

there is one other option, if the NICS contact does not reply to the dealer in 3 business days, the dealer can transfer the firearm to you and still be legal, but if you come back denied by the NICS check at a later time, you can expect a knock on your door from the feds, and every firearm inyour residence to be leaving with them, and you in tow also.
 

AaronS

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Hillmann wrote:
I can think of several reasons, but my qusetion isnt why would someone do it, my question is,is a straw purches illegal on the part of the gun store? Is it illegal on the part of the middle man if he dosen't know the buyer is a fellon?


The first question on the 4473 is to the effect:

1. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm?

If you answerNO then the FFL can not transfer it to you as it meets the strict legal definition of a straw buy.


If you are truly gifting it, then you can still legally answer YES. You are buying it for yourself and you plan to give it as a gift to someone else at some later date. Many people have done this legally when gifting a gun to a child, spouse, parent, friend, etc.....

I can't think of a better Birthday present than a gun....:dude:

You are my new best friend, and your posts are also number 1. I can't wait to have you over so I can wash, and wax your car.

((My birthday is in Jan. just to let ya know) also, I like .45acp))
 

GlockMeisterG21

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Hillmann wrote:
Is a straw perchus illegal on the part of the original gun store? Is it even illegal on the part of the middle man if they are selling a handgun to someone under 21, or selling to someone who they don't know is a fellon?

For the first, it is not illegal on the part of the store if they have no knowledge of it and have followed all the laws pertaining to the sale of a firearm. If they say that they are purchasing it as a gift then it is a legal transaction. A properly executed straw purchase is impossible to detect.

For the second, there is no law saying that anyone over the age of 18 cannot own a handgun. They can own, sell, shoot, and carry one but they cannot buy one from a licensed dealer. As to selling to a felon, as long as the seller does not know that the purchaser is a felon the he cannot be prosecuted. Wisconsin law does not require any checks when privately selling a firearm. There is also no paperwork requirement. Wisconsin is a "cash and carry" state. This is the infamous "gun-show loophole" that antis like to go on and on about.


That said, let me propose a scenario. A large guy walks into your gunstore. He looks rather trashy and seems to be a generally unsavory character. You greet him and begin talking about pistols. You suggest that he look at some of the larger frame automatics because of the size of his hands. He replies that he's looking for something smaller and points out a Kel-tec P-32 (or some other tiny pistol) and wants to take a look at it. You pull it out, clear it, and hand it to him. He looks at it for a minute or so and says he'll take it. You then begin the paperwork consisting of two forms, a state form and a federal form. His Id is valid, he pays cash for the gun, and his background check comes up clean. He waits his 48 hours and comes in to pick up the gun. Buys some ammo for it and walks out.

Was this a straw purchase? Maybe, maybe not.

Appearance can be discounted as I have seen people who are loaded walk around like their job is slinging burgers.

Paying in cash can be quite common as well. Less common if paying in small bills but the can still be explained. Perhaps this person has a general distrust of banks, works as a waiter, etc.

The only big warning sign in this particular scenario is someone with large hands buying a gun that small. I have run into this in my own search for small, concealable, firearms. If a gun is not comfortable in your hands then you're not going to want to shoot it. I personally dislike any gun I cannot get all of my fingers on. There can be any number of reasons for him purchasing that particular pistol but giving a reason is not required. Imho, the only reason someone would buy a gun like that is for a woman or child to shoot, or to CC it.


The question is, are any of those reason enough to risk a discrimination lawsuit by denying him the sale?

Imho, no. He followed the law and passed a background check. You warned him that it would not be a comfortable gun to shoot and tried to get him to look at something more suited for him. What else could you do?

There truly is very little a store can do to prevent a straw purchase.
 

Pointman

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Mayor, chief demand more ID checks at Badger Guns
Posted: Sept. 30, 2009
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/62764582.html


Milwaukee leaders raised the heat Tuesday on Badger Guns, demanding the owner immediately make changes to stem the flow of crime guns coming from the store.

Mayor Tom Barrett called on Badger immediately to begin scanning the identification of everyone coming into the store, like some bars do, and to look up anyone who wants to shoot on the range to make sure he isn't a felon.

Police Chief Edward Flynn suggested that anyone who comes into the store to buy a gun or shoot on the range sign a sworn affidavit saying he is not a criminal or committing a crime. Then store managers should allow police to inspect it, he said.

Barrett also slammed Adam Allan, owner of Badger in West Milwaukee, for posting a sign last week calling Milwaukee police racist for pulling over customers leaving his store during an undercover operation.

"That was an in-your-face sign to the Milwaukee police, the department that has numerous police officers shot by guns purchased in their store, and their reaction is to stick their fingers in the eyes of the police department," Barrett said. "That to me was deplorable."

Adam Allan took the sign down Sunday but said Tuesday he still thinks police are pulling over only his African-American customers. A Journal Sentinel reporter riding along with police last week saw four stops - two black men, a Hispanic couple and a white man.

Police said the stops were made because of evidence of possible gun crimes, not race.

"I probably wish I wouldn't have put 'racist' on the sign," Allan said. "That was strong, but I stand true to my word. It is not right what they are doing."

Flynn said he is fed up with Badger and dismissed Allan's accusations.

"It is late in the game for him to start complaining about his treatment," Flynn said. "I think the results speak for themselves at Badger. He has a business plan that counts on felonious purchases. We are saying, 'Change your business plan.' The burden is on you, sport. That is where you are making your money."

Since June, Milwaukee police have recovered a dozen illegal guns, found evidence of straw buying and discovered felons brazenly going into Badger, even shooting at the store's range.

Milwaukee police launched the operation days after two officers were shot in the head with a gun purchased at Badger one month earlier. Two other officers were shot in November 2007, also with a gun from Badger.

Badger Guns and its predecessor, Badger Outdoors, have accounted for one-third of crime guns recovered by Milwaukee police over the past four years, according to gun-trace data. The next closest Milwaukee-area gun shop accounted for less than 3% of crime guns in the same period. Badger Guns opened two years ago in the same location.

Badger Outdoors ranked among the largest sellers of crime guns in the nation for several years. Congress has forbidden the release of more current gun shop rankings.

Barrett said he is most troubled by the number of guns sold from Badger that quickly wind up in the hands of criminals. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives labels guns that are recovered by police within two years of sale as a "short-time-to-crime gun."

In the first eight months of this year, 143 such crime guns were traced back to Badger.

Responding to the demands of Barrett and Flynn, Allan said his staff is well-trained and that they turn down buyers who look like they are buying for someone else. He said he checks everyone's ID and doesn't allow anyone younger than 21 in the store. But he said it is impossible for him to look up everyone who uses the range - besides, that isn't required.

"There is no law that says you need to be checked in order to go on the range," he said.

Barrett and Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm both said they invited Allan to a meeting last year but that he never showed. They said they had a good working relationship with the previous owner, but that isn't there with Allan.

"Overall, the cooperation Badger gave us was very promising, and it was headed in the right direction," Chisholm said, referring to the former owner. "They did some things for us. I am not seeing that now."

Allan denied ever being invited to a meeting and said he is willing to meet. He said he is willing to have police officers stationed in his store. Allan said his store's high number of crime guns is explained by his volume and proximity to Milwaukee.

"We have always had that reputation. The media paints a dirty picture of us," he said.

Chisholm said Allan's explanations don't explain the flow of crime guns. He compared Badger to a drug house that criminals know they can go to get what they are looking for.

"The culture for far too long has been you can get a gun from Badger and it's not too difficult," Chisholm said. "It is inexcusable. He is not doing everything he could do to prevent these sales. If he were, he would be preventing them."
 

Flipper

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Pointman wrote:
Mayor, chief demand more ID checks at Badger Guns
Posted: Sept. 30, 2009
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/62764582.html


Milwaukee leaders raised the heat Tuesday on Badger Guns, demanding the owner immediately make changes to stem the flow of crime guns coming from the store.

Mayor Tom Barrett called on Badger immediately to begin scanning the identification of everyone coming into the store, like some bars do, and to look up anyone who wants to shoot on the range to make sure he isn't a felon.

Police Chief Edward Flynn suggested that anyone who comes into the store to buy a gun or shoot on the range sign a sworn affidavit saying he is not a criminal or committing a crime. Then store managers should allow police to inspect it, he said.

Dear Leader Barrett is NOT the mayor of West Milwaukee andun-indicted felon MPD Reichsführer and Troop Commander Flynn can make all the 'suggestions" he wants to, but he doesn't establish lawsregarding firearms. Flynn, obviously, with all his firearms being provided at taxpayer expense has never had to complete a 4473.

Per Wikipedia

A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that must be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).

The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS.[suP][[/suP]

Director John Milius portrayed his concerns over the Form 4473 in his film Red Dawn, where it is specifically mentioned as being used by an invading Soviet army to track down civilians who own guns.
 

AaronS

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Flipper wrote:
Pointman wrote:
Mayor, chief demand more ID checks at Badger Guns
Posted: Sept. 30, 2009
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/62764582.html


Milwaukee leaders raised the heat Tuesday on Badger Guns, demanding the owner immediately make changes to stem the flow of crime guns coming from the store.

Mayor Tom Barrett called on Badger immediately to begin scanning the identification of everyone coming into the store, like some bars do, and to look up anyone who wants to shoot on the range to make sure he isn't a felon.

Police Chief Edward Flynn suggested that anyone who comes into the store to buy a gun or shoot on the range sign a sworn affidavit saying he is not a criminal or committing a crime. Then store managers should allow police to inspect it, he said.
Dear Leader Barrett is NOT the mayor of West Milwaukee andun-indicted felon MPD Reichsführer and Troop Commander Flynn can make all the 'suggestions" he wants to, but he doesn't establish lawsregarding firearms.
Thank God they do not make up the laws for this gun shop. We do have to watch the two of them. Both want full police rule. Keep an extra eye on Flynn. We all know that Barrett can not fight to save his life, but we still do not know about Flynn. I hear that his "horny monkey" fighting style is very good!

[align=center] [/align]

[align=center]Carry on.[/align]
 

GlockMeisterG21

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Just a couple comments.

Pointman wrote:
SNIP The paper did not report that many police officers are customers of Badger. The off-duty police are pretty scary, often looking like thugs and mishandling guns in the parking lot as they get ready to go to the range. If you talk with a clerk in any gun store they'll probably tell you officers mishandle guns more often than anyone else.

I'll agree to that. I have seen some pretty bad safety violations from some officers not to mention some pretty poor shooting. Aren't they supposed to have all this "specialized" training with firearms? NOTE: I do not include all officers in my previous statement. I am commenting on the poor training that many officers seem to revive not bashing the job.


Mayor, chief demand more ID checks at Badger Guns
Posted: Sept. 30, 2009
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/62764582.html


Milwaukee leaders raised the heat Tuesday on Badger Guns, demanding the owner immediately make changes to stem the flow of crime guns coming from the store.

Mayor Tom Barrett called on Badger immediately to begin scanning the identification of everyone coming into the store, like some bars do, and to look up anyone who wants to shoot on the range to make sure he isn't a felon.

And just how is this going to be practical? It's not like they mark FELON on a driver license much less the other things that keep you from owning a gun. They're supposed to run a background check on everyone in the store? If you're lucky a BC takes a few minutes but I've seen it take far longer. Many times the Handgun Hotline will tell an FFL that they have to call him back because it's taking too long. Will the city be paying for these checks? Will they set up a faster system? I'm not holding my breath...
 
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