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OC holster for Beretta m9 advice

DMack

New member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
7
Location
Springfield VA
I recently purchased a Beretta m9 and open carry quite often. The problem is, I don't feel completely comfortable when it comes to drawing my weapon quickly. I currently use the Serpa holster below. The problem I have with it is that only about 90% of my draws are clean. I like the idea of having a holster with some sort of safety release lock, but am afraid that it hinders my ability to effectively draw. Should I look at holsters that have no "lock"? Is my fear of someone coming up to me and grabbing my gun justified? Any advice on holsters would be great.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SERPA-CQC-wMatte-Finish,1145,1410.htm
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Lotta choices out there for the M-9. With any holster it takes time and safe practice. IMO don't worry about speed so much as being deliberate. Speed will come. If you want outright greased lightning speed then look for a custom made competition holster.

There are a couple ways and methods for competition holsters, some are just skeletons. Then there are the metal holsters that are formed to the gun, I don't think anybody is using those much anymore except fast draw competition. Or you can use a leather holster that has been wet formed, dried, and then hot waxed. But a safety strap would need to be used with these as they are lightning due to the wax, unless they are formed tight enough into the trigger guard.

Almost any tack shop or leather smith can make you a speed holster. If you can find one the French police holster for the M-9 is fast. But it is a low ride holster on a swivel. They were selling for around 20 bucks surplus. Safariland made a high ride for the M-9 also that was fast, it was a leather hybrid. Safariland are expensive though.
 

DMack

New member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
7
Location
Springfield VA
Thanks for the input guys.

What your take on OCing using a holster without any kind of safety strap or thumb/finger release? I feel like the draw will be a breeze, but don't want anyone to grab my gun from the holster.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Thanks for the input guys.

What your take on OCing using a holster without any kind of safety strap or thumb/finger release? I feel like the draw will be a breeze, but don't want anyone to grab my gun from the holster.
That's a personal decision you have to make. There are few if no stats to support the gun grab theory. And if you can release a holster, most times a bad guy can to if he does his research. Retention in the old days was to keep your gun from falling out. But many of the kydex holsters do not need this. A good tight leather holster does not need it. Speed holsters do. In the event of a grab, what will keep your gun in the holster is you, not the retention device. The carrier has more leverage to keep a gun in a holster than the grabber. Training and education as well as situational awareness will do more to prevent a gun snatch than retention devices.

20 years ago a female FHP officer was attacked by couple between Bahia Honda, and Big Pine Key. She was using a leather holster with just a snap. The couple dragged her into the thickets and beat her repeatedly attempting to remover her sidearm. Even though she was barely conscious when helped arrived, and all of her teeth were kicked from her mouth and skull severely fractured, she still had a grip on her sidearm. It never left her holster, even thought the two tried. It is not that easy to snatch a firearm.
 

Troy bilt

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Sep 28, 2012
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Milan

Elm Creek Smith

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Mar 7, 2013
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In the county.
I have an original Bianchi UM-84 in forest green that I used to open carry a Pistol, M1911A1, Caliber .45 ACP, and later a Pistol, M9, Caliber 9mm NATO, on three continents. It isn't fast, but it is secure.

ECS

Sent from my little slice of Heaven.
 

Aknazer

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Mar 6, 2011
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California
One thing that I heard in the past and have found to be true is that "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." So first practice the draw a LOT, being sure to go slow and smooth. Once you feel that you can smoothly draw the gun you keep adding a bit more speed while focusing on maintaining that smooth draw. Also feel free to try and figure out what can cause issues with the draw. I know that when I practiced my draw with my 92FS I found that if I applied any upward force without the button being fully depressed then it would snag (even at ~95% depressed it would still snag), so I really had to practice making sure it was fully pressed BEFORE I started to pull up.

As for the whole retention while OCing bit, there have been a few incidents regarding it. The most recent was a minor who walked up behind the guy and took his gun. The guy then chased after the perp, only to be shot by the perp (couldn't ever find out if he was shot by his own gun or not, but most likely was). Outside of that case I remember hearing about a crazy person who saw another civilian OCing and demanded the gun under pretenses of being DEA. There was a struggle and the gun came free, but another patron at the restaraunt secured the gun. And the final case I can think of was when a cop's gun came free at a prison, but was secured by the prisoners he was escorting (I think he passed out due to a medical condition, but don't remember the specifics too well).

So in short, it is very rare for guns to come free of their holsters due to no retention on the holster, but it can and does happen and is something one should think about. Whether or not you feel it is something to be concerned about is a choice only you can decide.
 

WalkingWolf

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One thing that I heard in the past and have found to be true is that "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." So first practice the draw a LOT, being sure to go slow and smooth. Once you feel that you can smoothly draw the gun you keep adding a bit more speed while focusing on maintaining that smooth draw. Also feel free to try and figure out what can cause issues with the draw. I know that when I practiced my draw with my 92FS I found that if I applied any upward force without the button being fully depressed then it would snag (even at ~95% depressed it would still snag), so I really had to practice making sure it was fully pressed BEFORE I started to pull up.

As for the whole retention while OCing bit, there have been a few incidents regarding it. The most recent was a minor who walked up behind the guy and took his gun. The guy then chased after the perp, only to be shot by the perp (couldn't ever find out if he was shot by his own gun or not, but most likely was). Outside of that case I remember hearing about a crazy person who saw another civilian OCing and demanded the gun under pretenses of being DEA. There was a struggle and the gun came free, but another patron at the restaraunt secured the gun. And the final case I can think of was when a cop's gun came free at a prison, but was secured by the prisoners he was escorting (I think he passed out due to a medical condition, but don't remember the specifics too well).


So in short, it is very rare for guns to come free of their holsters due to no retention on the holster, but it can and does happen and is something one should think about. Whether or not you feel it is something to be concerned about is a choice only you can decide.
That case was in Virginia, and the two knew each other and got into a scuffle. The gun fell out of the holster and the perp picked it up. It was not snatched from the holster. Hearsay in here does not count, if you have cites and not second hand please post them, otherwise it didn't happen.

As far as the button release on the Serpa, the gun is not supposed to come out if the gun is pulled on and then the button pushed. It is the same on the thumb drive. The buttons must be activated before upward movement to come out. The gun will not come out of the Serpa unless it is a straight upward movement also. Serpa and thumb drive holsters take practice or during stress the gun is likely to not come out.
 

MAC702

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Jul 31, 2011
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Nevada
...What your take on OCing using a holster without any kind of safety strap or thumb/finger release? I feel like the draw will be a breeze, but don't want anyone to grab my gun from the holster.
It completely depends on the kinds of places you go and how crowded they are.

For my neck of the country, and specifically for the kinds of places I go, retention is not an issue. But no one else can answer that for you, and if in doubt, retention is better. Quick-drawing is an almost unheard of need for an OC'er, anyway.
 
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Aknazer

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That case was in Virginia, and the two knew each other and got into a scuffle. The gun fell out of the holster and the perp picked it up. It was not snatched from the holster. Hearsay in here does not count, if you have cites and not second hand please post them, otherwise it didn't happen.
And may I have your cites for this information? Here is one of the articles on it (taken from this thread on the OCDO forums), and states "'The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said." So even if they got into a scuffle due to the OCer attempting to stop the gun grab, that doesn't change that it was a gun grab. But again, if you know more about this case then what I have seen, please feel free to cite it.

As far as the button release on the Serpa, the gun is not supposed to come out if the gun is pulled on and then the button pushed. It is the same on the thumb drive. The buttons must be activated before upward movement to come out. The gun will not come out of the Serpa unless it is a straight upward movement also. Serpa and thumb drive holsters take practice or during stress the gun is likely to not come out.
The point I was making was that it has to be 100% depressed and not just mostly depressed, and that this could be why only 90% of his draws are clean. The other 10% could be because he simply isn't fully depressing the button and simply needs to practice it some more.


And as for the other cases I mentioned, I'll keep looking for them later. Given that they are a few years old and I'm not the best at Google it will probably take me a bit to find them.
 

WalkingWolf

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And may I have your cites for this information? Here is one of the articles on it (taken from this thread on the OCDO forums), and states "'The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said." So even if they got into a scuffle due to the OCer attempting to stop the gun grab, that doesn't change that it was a gun grab. But again, if you know more about this case then what I have seen, please feel free to cite it.



The point I was making was that it has to be 100% depressed and not just mostly depressed, and that this could be why only 90% of his draws are clean. The other 10% could be because he simply isn't fully depressing the button and simply needs to practice it some more.


And as for the other cases I mentioned, I'll keep looking for them later. Given that they are a few years old and I'm not the best at Google it will probably take me a bit to find them.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...lf-Defense-apparently-failed-Richmonder/page4

The above is the thread, Grapeshot has knowledge of the case, I respect his word. You should read the whole thread.

And to add what you posted and what the reports have stated is the perp grabbed the gun, which he did, no where does it say he grabbed from his holster. The media report does NOT even state that.
 
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Aknazer

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http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...lf-Defense-apparently-failed-Richmonder/page4

The above is the thread, Grapeshot has knowledge of the case, I respect his word. You should read the whole thread.

And to add what you posted and what the reports have stated is the perp grabbed the gun, which he did, no where does it say he grabbed from his holster. The media report does NOT even state that.
It states that "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler’s gun." So yes, the media DOES state that unless you are to assume that the gun was just laying on the floor the second that the perp walked into the store and that he just "immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun [that was already on the floor]." But that simply wouldn't make sense.

Now I do trust Grapeshot and I didn't know that the thread which was created in the state-specific forum was updated ~1.5 YEARS after the incident, but that isn't exactly a "cite" like I asked for. Now going through the thread there is this news article posted about the incident (the one talking about the verdict, not the initial reporting), and even in it, the wording makes it appear that the gun was snatched either from the hands of Mr. Tyler (unlikely) or from the holster (most likely) since it uses the wording "...grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle..." and makes no mention of the gun falling to the floor or the perp picking it up from the floor.

But let's say that it did simply fall out during a scuffle and it wasn't a gun grab. That STILL shows why one might want to consider a retention device and the hazards of not having one.
 

WalkingWolf

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It states that "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler’s gun." So yes, the media DOES state that unless you are to assume that the gun was just laying on the floor the second that the perp walked into the store and that he just "immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun [that was already on the floor]." But that simply wouldn't make sense.

Now I do trust Grapeshot and I didn't know that the thread which was created in the state-specific forum was updated ~1.5 YEARS after the incident, but that isn't exactly a "cite" like I asked for. Now going through the thread there is this news article posted about the incident (the one talking about the verdict, not the initial reporting), and even in it, the wording makes it appear that the gun was snatched either from the hands of Mr. Tyler (unlikely) or from the holster (most likely) since it uses the wording "...grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle..." and makes no mention of the gun falling to the floor or the perp picking it up from the floor.

But let's say that it did simply fall out during a scuffle and it wasn't a gun grab. That STILL shows why one might want to consider a retention device and the hazards of not having one.
And it makes no mention that the gun was grabbed from a holster, you are using emotion and assumption.
 

Motofixxer

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Now back to the topic at hand...


My opinion the chance of actually needing to draw it are low. The other possibilities of things happening are greater. You may need to run for example. An unsecured firearm has and is likely to get jolted from it's home. Or imagine getting into a scuffle or knocked to the ground in some way. I recommend a level 2 holster at least.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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3,275
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northern wis
I don't carry holsters with out a retention device. I like my Black Hawk Serpas for my Glocks. I prefer thumb breaks on my others.

I wore Level 3 holsters when I worked I know of more then one gun coming out of holsters during physical activity.

I watch a very nice blued python go sliding across a parking lot during a fight took the blue off nicely.
 

Dougcr

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
27
Location
Michigan
I recently purchased a Beretta m9 and open carry quite often. The problem is, I don't feel completely comfortable when it comes to drawing my weapon quickly. I currently use the Serpa holster below. The problem I have with it is that only about 90% of my draws are clean. I like the idea of having a holster with some sort of safety release lock, but am afraid that it hinders my ability to effectively draw. Should I look at holsters that have no "lock"? Is my fear of someone coming up to me and grabbing my gun justified? Any advice on holsters would be great.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SERPA-CQC-wMatte-Finish,1145,1410.htm
I have this same Blackhawk holster you shared in your link for my 45. For the most part I really like it, but the one thing I do not like is that my pistol does not sit perfectly tight while holstered and it has left 2 small marks on the finish of the slide from slightly rocking back and forth.
 

decklin

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Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
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Pacific, WA
I have this same Blackhawk holster you shared in your link for my 45. For the most part I really like it, but the one thing I do not like is that my pistol does not sit perfectly tight while holstered and it has left 2 small marks on the finish of the slide from slightly rocking back and forth.
I had the same issue with one of my SERPA's. I fixed it by taking and old credit card and cutting it into little rectangles. I then stacked them and superglued them to the inside of the trigger guard. You only need to cut the credit card enough to fit in the guard. Ideally you want as much surface area as possible to come into contact with your gun.
 

djdavis75

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Jul 4, 2013
Messages
62
Location
Oklahoma, USA
I recently purchased a Beretta m9 and open carry quite often. The problem is, I don't feel completely comfortable when it comes to drawing my weapon quickly. I currently use the Serpa holster below. The problem I have with it is that only about 90% of my draws are clean. I like the idea of having a holster with some sort of safety release lock, but am afraid that it hinders my ability to effectively draw. Should I look at holsters that have no "lock"? Is my fear of someone coming up to me and grabbing my gun justified? Any advice on holsters would be great.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SERPA-CQC-wMatte-Finish,1145,1410.htm
I didn't feel comfortable open carrying using the holster I typically use for concealed carry. I wanted something more in the 3 o'clock position, instead of 4-5 o'clock like my concealment holster. I also wanted some sort of active retention device, that was fast and easy to use, but would stop a gun grab situation, if it should ever occur.

I looked at the Serpa, but I had heard of some people having issues with them. I started seeing people mention the Safariland 637x series ALS holster as a good alternative. I just got mine this past week and have open carried with it several times now. It uses a thumb operated release lever to remove the gun, I find my thumb naturally falls on the lever when I place my hand on the gun. With my limited experience/practice with it, the ALS seems like a very effective, fast, and easy system. I did install the ALS Guard on mine also, which adds an extra level of protection, it's still pretty fast and easy with the ALS Guard installed.

I got the 6378 version which includes the paddle and belt attachment, where the 6377 has only the belt attachment. I think it was around $40, and seems very well made. The ALS also seems to hold the gun quite well, I pulled quite hard on it, and it didn't budge.
 

Aknazer

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Mar 6, 2011
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California
And it makes no mention that the gun was grabbed from a holster, you are using emotion and assumption.
No, I'm using logic, but nice try at attacking me. If the reports state that the perp took the gun from the victim AND that the victim did not draw the weapon, then it would stand to reason with that information it was taken from the holster. How one could get to the conclusion that it fell to the floor and was picked up off the ground from the reports that have been shown is beyond me and would require far more assuming. Also I'm still waiting on your "Cite to Authority" showing that the initial reports were wrong and that the gun did indeed fall out of the holster instead of being taken out of the holster by the perp like you are claiming.

Also here is the link to the crazy person who pretended to be DEA, managed to take the gun from the owner, but was stopped by a restaurant employee. Note that the bad guy had family in politics, was let go, and ended up dying less than 6 months after this incident in a shoot-out with police (to give you an idea of his state-of-mind). And here is the post about it on the NM forums. I know there were some other posts about it on OCDO but I don't feel like trying to find them right now.

Now to get this back on-topic. The point of these things is simply to show why one would consider a retention holster over one without retention. Obviously the risk is very small, and as such one might decide that they are willing to live with that risk.
 
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