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OC discussion on Lightfighter

Mjolnir

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Yep, you are correct.

This situation would have happened even if the pistol was concealed & there was no reason to conceal it at all & tis issue could not have turned fence sitters into anti gunners.

No reason for the element of suprise as nobody was suprised when the security guard tried taking it away from the person armed.

But hey, you are so hung up on "the element of suprise" and refuse to actually look & understand it except in the contex you want.

I've had better arguements with a brick wall, least they are objective.............
 

deepdiver

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If he had left his gun in the car it wouldn't have happened either. :uhoh:


"I do not currently have a CCW, and trying to conceal an N-Frame is nigh impossible anyway."


He had no alternative way of carrying. OC at that point, per his own statement, was his only option so, IMO, better to OC than to NC (not carry).

I still see pro/cons on both sides and reasons to both CC and OC depending on the place, conditions, comfort, etc. One story about a rogue Wal-Mart employee who should have been both arrested and fired, doesn't make me think that all OC is bad anymore than a story about a CC'er getting shot because of a slow draw from concealment is going to make me think that all CC is bad. What if someone was CC and in reaching for something on a high shelf printed or exposed their firearm briefly and that same Wal-Mart jagoff saw it and tried to disarm the CC'er. Should we then argue that CC is bad and ineffective because if you ever for any reason print or expose your pistol by accident people get all upset and worried wheareas if we OC'd in the first place that wouldn't happen?

I'll keep reading and learning, but thus far I have not seen anything conclusive that either method of carrying is 100% of the time the right way to carry or that either is 100% the best way to carry. I remain balanced in my opinion.


Thank you for answering my earlier question, Mjolner.
 

imperialism2024

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Mjolnir, you've probably had better discussions with a brick wall because brick walls don't recognize when you're trying to divert the debate to another topic. Like I said, that's a nice story there, but the fact that people can see an OCer OCing doesn't really need to be proven. But for the fourth time now, you have yet to answer my request of scenarios where OC will be a tactical disadvantage in a non-LE confrontation with a BG, when the OCer is in a proper state of situational awareness. I'm relatively open-minded, and I've giving you a chance here to demonstrate your point, but you've refused four times already.

I'm getting more and more convinced that "most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white." And like I said in the last post, since OC is supposedly so tactically un-sound, there should at least be scenarios (not even real cases!) that demonstrate this.

Anyhow.

DD: I agree that there's a balance between CC and OC, and that neither is best 100% of the time. Now, we probably all know the end to which my slider is closer... but regardless, I recognize both as valid. However, the tacticool hardcore CCers (that's just descriptive, not adhominem) like to talk about how OC is so bad from a tactical standpoint. I'm trying to say that CC doesn't hold a monopoly on tactical soundness.
 

J.A.G.

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Hey guys,

So I feel somewhat obligated to post being that I'm the one that started the topic over at LF.net.

Lets get a few things straight first.
1) I'm a little drunk (its memorial day, I've been on the grill/drinking since about 2:00 this afternoon)
2) I joined the Army back in 2005, but was discharged not long after due to an injury to my knee, and the Army not allowing me to stay in the infantry. (therefore, I have no real military experience, have not been to war, have never used a firearm to protect myself, or have any actual tactical experience outside of classes/training).
3) I have been a gun enthusiast since I was 18 (before I joined the army), and was initially trained in CC...and believed CC was better in all accounts than OC.

HOWEVER - let me say...

Since visiting this board, it has opened up my opinions on OC. I still think that CC is better for ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! for ME!!!!!!!!!! not for everyone. I can tell you now that my draw stroke concealed is still better than a lot of peoples draw stroke OC. It's all about training. You simply can't say that OC is better/easier/faster than CC... because you can always find someone faster/better.

The reason I came here, is because I just moved to kalifornia, and in Los Angeles (where I live), a CCW is nearly impossible. So OC is my ONLY option for protecting myself.

Because of this, I inquired the intelligence of those on LF.net. Those guys are the reason why the rest of us buy guns, gear, shirts with guns on them, hats with american flags on them, multicam uniforms and ammo pouches, etc. these guys have been there, they've used their firearms to protect themselves, they've fought (and some of them died) for the things we love and endulge ourselves in every day.

You have to understand their standpoint. They are coming from a COMPLETELY PRACTICAL/ LIVED EXPERIENCE point of view. You are trying to tell someone who has had to use a gun/knife/pen/piece of paper to protect themselves, save the life of another soldier/officer/civilian that what they do or have done is wrong. its completely assinine.

Thank you Mjolnir for holding this open for so long (sorry for waiting to check it out here).

I'm not at all saying anything you guys are doing - or anything you guys stand for is wrong. All I'm saying is that you have to understand that even if you think what you're doing is politically correct/legal/"the right thing to do", it isn't the best thing.

Furthermore, the guys over there are completely understanding. While a lot of them are .mil/LEO, there are a lot of US that are not. The only thing that keeps us from getting flamed/banned is that we stay in our lane. I am in no way going to tell someone who has been in the shit that I think my style of shooting is better than his. its just stupid to even think that you are going to go there and put up a fight like that. I have survived there because I STAY IN MY LANE! and listen to what those who have "BTDT" (been there done that, for those of you who are acronym inclined) have to say.

Now.

my take.

like I said a half hour ago, I was initially trained on CC, and think that is the best way for me. The "element of surprise" is more than that...its about knowing you CAN do something but knowing you DON"T HAVE TO do something at the same time. Because seriously, do you REALLY think you can take down a "bad guy" when the time comes? How do you know you won't just clam up, roll up into a ball in the corner when bullets start flying? why? because you have taken a class on shooting? because you have invested $3000 in your 1911? because you have the latest greatest gear that "BLACKHAWK" inc. has to offer?

Please.

The reason I am here, is because when I get denied my CCW permit from los angeles county, I will result in OCing to PROTECT MY LIFE! isn't that the goal here? BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That doesn't mean that I will be completely one-sided and think that because I OC that I am untouchable.

Anyway...this has gone on way longer that I wanted it to - again, I'm a little drunk. But my point is, be open to different opinions, especially those who have been through the experiences that you all dream of.
 

Mjolnir

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Good post J.A.G. good post.

I've been a member at LF for about 5 years and they have some great info, but don't take kindly to keyboard commandos that know everything.

However, if ya come to LF with a open mind and a willingness to listen and learn while exchanging thoughts and info it's a great place.
 

J.A.G.

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Mjolnir,

What's your screen name over at LF? funny enough, it was my first instinct to look at your profile to find out more about you (being as it is a REQUIREMENT to post a detailed profile on LF so that people know WHO you are and WHERE you're coming from)...

thanks for the kind words. I didn't realize this had been going on for so long... like I said, I felt obligated to post being that I started the thread:banghead:

Happy Memorial day all - never forget those who have given all for you.... ... ... that's right... - ... You.
 

Mjolnir

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J.A.G. it does not matter who I am over there & yes I do have a profile in the thread you are talking about. I'm a wallflower sitting back and reading and learning from those who are now at the tip of the spear. Have you ever checked out Yeager's forum get off the X http://getoffthex.com ???

Don't thank me, I've retired from Active Duty and have never expericenced what the young warriors today are living and dying with.

It's to these Warriors we owe our thanks and gratitude.
 

Venator

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Mjolnir wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
The most powerful self-defense weapon is the brain. A gun is a tool to help it. It doesn't matter how many rounds you can put through the same hole at 75 yards, or 50 yards, or 25 yards, or even 10 yards. What matters is that first shot at a target a few feet away, and who you have an advantage over not because of how you carry your gun, but because your observational skills and intuition have given you the ability to properly engage that threat.
True the Brain is the most important part of self defense, no question. However, with OC youo can not observe everybody all the time, you do have blind spots no matter how hard you try and yes you will miss something & that something could possible be that what will kill you.

What also matters is how you react to the flight or fight reflex, you can have the worlds best observational skills and intuition (what is this and how do you sharpen/build on it) yet when your flight or fight reflex kicks in ya can't hit a dummy at 5 feet with a baseball bat at high noon.

If you have never expercienced an adrenaline dump or train under stress when you do have that dump all kinds of strange things happen & not all of em are good.

Can you fight effectively thrugh that adrenaline dump, or will it bite you in the ass.
What I don't understand is if CC is so much better why don't the uniformed LEO's do it? I'm sure a uniform can be designed to conceal their weapons, I mean if it's such an advantage. LEO's get there guns taken away far more than non LEOs. This would be eliminated if they carriedconcealed.
 

Venator

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Mjolnir wrote:
J.A.G. it does not matter who I am over there & yes I do have a profile in the thread you are talking about. I'm a wallflower sitting back and reading and learning from those who are now at the tip of the spear. Have you ever checked out Yeager's forum get off the X http://getoffthex.com ???

Don't thank me, I've retired from Active Duty and have never expericenced what the young warriors today are living and dying with.

It's to these Warriors we owe our thanks and gratitude.
Pay no attention to the Man behind the curtain....
 

deepdiver

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Firstly, welcome to OCDO!

My following comments are made because I think you may have a misimpression of the membership here based on what you posted (even taking into account your admitted tipsyness). If any members think I am misrepresenting our little corner of the internet, please feel free to correct me or take me to task.

J.A.G. wrote:
SNIP

You simply can't say that OC is better/easier/faster than CC... because you can always find someone faster/better.

The majority of members here are aware of that. I don't think anyone here is attempting to be a fastest draw gunfighter. We have been in awe in several threads of videos of the professional shooters and their astounding abilities.

The reason I came here, is because I just moved to kalifornia, and in Los Angeles (where I live), a CCW is nearly impossible. So OC is my ONLY option for protecting myself.

That is the situation for several of our members.

Because of this, I inquired the intelligence of those on LF.net. Those guys are the reason why the rest of us buy guns, gear, shirts with guns on them, hats with american flags on them, multicam uniforms and ammo pouches, etc. these guys have been there, they've used their firearms to protect themselves, they've fought (and some of them died) for the things we love and endulge ourselves in every day.

There are many ex-military on OCDO and with few exceptions, the membership is very much aware of, respectful of and thankful for our active and former military and their profound service to and sacrifice for this nation. This thread is about a difference of opinion on one aspect of gun ownership and carry. Such a disagreement does not in any way denigrate the knowledge or wisdom of anyone on any forum who has had to use firearms for defense of person or our nation.

I'm not at all saying anything you guys are doing - or anything you guys stand for is wrong. All I'm saying is that you have to understand that even if you think what you're doing is politically correct/legal/"the right thing to do", it isn't the best thing.

As I have said, I don't think that either CC or OC is the best in every single situation and neither do the military guys because they sure as heck aren't CCing in the sandbox. Also, LF isn't made up of every single current or ex military member of the United States so their opinion is not necessarily universal or even majority, although it may be. I know ex-military with CCWs who nearly always OC anyway and others who mirror what I understand from the few threads I have seen as LF's consensus. We have members who are currently there doing that now. Not everyone, regardless of shared backgrounds, reaches the same conclusions from those experiences. It doesn't necessarily make anyone right or wrong. And this is not a cross-forum feud or anything. This thread was discussing a single matter in a single thread on LF. There are multiple matters in multiple threads on OCDO with which I am in the minority opinion. Most of us find ourselves in that position on any forum from time to time. We may disagree today and agree tomorrow. Again, that doesn't make anything right or wrong or best or worst across the board.

snip

like I said a half hour ago, I was initially trained on CC, and think that is the best way for me. The "element of surprise" is more than that...its about knowing you CAN do something but knowing you DON"T HAVE TO do something at the same time. Because seriously, do you REALLY think you can take down a "bad guy" when the time comes? How do you know you won't just clam up, roll up into a ball in the corner when bullets start flying? why? because you have taken a class on shooting? because you have invested $3000 in your 1911? because you have the latest greatest gear that "BLACKHAWK" inc. has to offer?

Please.

There have been numerous comments and discussion on OCDO about the possibliity of not reacting the way you hope you would in a real life situation. Few, if any, people here are unaware of that possible reality. This is not a forum of mall ninjas. Most of us are professionals and students living regular suburban lives who believe that sometimes we have to assert our rights to maintain our rights. Also, OC does NOT require that you HAVE to do something in a given situation. I understand the argument that because your firearm is visible you are more likely to be drawn into the situation by the BG, but given the reality of self-defense situations, the speed with which they occur and the tunnel vision of the perps and victims, and lack of evidence to the contrary, I doubt this is typically a reality in America. It very well may be a reality in Falluja, but I don't live near there and do not presume to even begin to hypothesize my behavior if I did.

The reason I am here, is because when I get denied my CCW permit from los angeles county, I will result in OCing to PROTECT MY LIFE!

The reality for many of our members.

isn't that the goal here? BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That doesn't mean that I will be completely one-sided and think that because I OC that I am untouchable.

There is where your apparent impressions get sideways with the purpose of the members here and IMO, the majority view. We don't think we are "untouchable" because we OC. I do not feel any more protected OC rather than CC unless I have to CC in a more inaccessible manner than I would prefer for some reason. And in a crowd, I typically CC. Some people who OC may think that their OC will deter all BGs and allow them to live a safe life, but that is a rare opinion on OCDO. Also, you miss the fact that more than 2/3 of us also have our CC license/permit and CC when appropriate, required or more convenient. OCDO does not have a prevalent position that CC is bad, but rather that OC is good.

But my point is, be open to different opinions,

Most of our membership is unless those opinions are couched in absolutes.

especially those who have been through the experiences that you all dream of.

Here is where you totally leave the tracks. There may be some here who dream of going into armed combat and there are definitely some who have, but I don't think that most of us who have not dream of it. Most of us hope to never have to use our firearms to harm another human being. We are willing to otherwise we wouldn't carry, and we respect those who have done so in the defense of our nation, but we are not dreaming of or longing to rush into combat. To argue that we do echos the arguments of certain antis and LEOs who accuse all citizens who carry of being "wannabe Wyatt Earps" or "wannabe LEOs". I, like I think the majority of other OCDO members, just wanna go home to my family every night, protect them from danger, and protect my business during business hours.

I truly hope you enjoy your time on OCDO and take the time to approach the forum with an open mind. There is a lot of knowledge here as well, although much of it is different than you find on other forums, but then, if it weren't, there would be no purpose for this forum.
 

imperialism2024

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Jeez, more than a month and I'm still waiting for a response to:

"Please provide some exceptions to my previous statement of "Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white.""

:D
 

BobCav

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"knowing you CAN do something but knowing you DON'T HAVE TO " is the selfish death of America.

I'd rather know I could have and did. Our founding fathers didn'thave to... they wanted to. It all comes down to what you hold sacred and dear in your heart. Is it only Love of self oror Love of God, your family, your fellow man,justice and right, or your country?

Questions each of us must ask of ourselves every day.
 

J.A.G.

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BobCav wrote:
"knowing you CAN do something but knowing you DON'T HAVE TO " is the selfish death of America.

I'd rather know I could have and did.  Our founding fathers didn't have to... they wanted to.  It all comes down to what you hold sacred and dear in your heart.  Is it only Love of self or or Love of God, your family, your fellow man, justice and right, or your country?

Questions each of us must ask of ourselves every day.

you may be right. But this country isn't what it used to be. you WILL lose everything you own in civil court when you use your firearm in self defense. Are you prepared to do that in the defense of someone elses life? Someone else you have never met before, someone who doesn't mean anything to you? I would do what I could to make sure the person didn't get killed, and be a good witness, and call the cops...

If its my life, or a very very very important person to me, I wouldn't hesitate to take action.

You see, its easy to sit here and say oh yeah I'd whip out my gun in 1.3 seconds and put 6 very well aimed shots in BG's chest. And you know what...maybe you can. But when BG's wife/mother/children sue you for killing him in civil court, you will lose. And you will pay them everything you own for the rest of your life.

If YOUR life was not in danger, and you had the means to escape, you wouldn't consider it?

I have thought a lot about this. Sure I'd love to be the hero. Sure it'd be great to know I did the right thing. But what good would it do if I end up in jail because the jury didn't think so, or because of the corrupt court bullshit in this country, I now have to sign over 2/3rds of my paycheck every week to a family who's main financial supporter was a criminal? How's that for irony?
 

BobCav

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J.A.G. wrote:
BobCav wrote:
"knowing you CAN do something but knowing you DON'T HAVE TO " is the selfish death of America.

I'd rather know I could have and did. Our founding fathers didn'thave to... they wanted to. It all comes down to what you hold sacred and dear in your heart. Is it only Love of self oror Love of God, your family, your fellow man,justice and right, or your country?

Questions each of us must ask of ourselves every day.

you may be right. But this country isn't what it used to be. you WILL lose everything you own in civil court when you use your firearm in self defense. Are you prepared to do that in the defense of someone elses life? Someone else you have never met before, someone who doesn't mean anything to you? I would do what I could to make sure the person didn't get killed, and be a good witness, and call the cops...

If its my life, or a very very very important person to me, I wouldn't hesitate to take action.

You see, its easy to sit here and say oh yeah I'd whip out my gun in 1.3 seconds and put 6 very well aimed shots in BG's chest. And you know what...maybe you can. But when BG's wife/mother/children sue you for killing him in civil court, you will lose. And you will pay them everything you own for the rest of your life.

If YOUR life was not in danger, and you had the means to escape, you wouldn't consider it?

I have thought a lot about this. Sure I'd love to be the hero. Sure it'd be great to know I did the right thing. But what good would it do if I end up in jail because the jury didn't think so, or because of the corrupt court bullshit in this country, I now have to sign over 2/3rds of my paycheck every week to a family who's main financial supporter was a criminal? How's that for irony?
Agreed, it isn't what it used to be, but it'll never get back there fast. Just one person at a time. I disagree, I will NOT lose "everything" in a civil lawsuit for the lawful defensive use of my firearm. First, most states now have laws that prevent you from civil lawsuits for the lawful use of your firearm.

Second, I am worth so much more than just the sum of my net worth, my cash and belongings. There are things I have that can never be taken away from me, not even by death.

Court, juries and jail be damned, I have but one judge and I pray to Him every day that I will not have to use my gun. I also pray that if it becomes necessary, that God grants me the courage and strength to do the right thing,whatever that might be, that my aim is true and that I have the faith to live with the consequences of my actions, whatever they might be.

I used to think that the only value my life had is that which I am willing to die for. But as I've grown older I have realized that it's also what I'm willing to LIVE for, but not in a "run and live" sense. As many through time can attest, living for an ideal sometimes means dying for it too.


P.S. I feel your pain, bro. My ex gets a lawful yet undeserved half of my Navy retirement PLUS child support.
 

protector84

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You see, its easy to sit here and say oh yeah I'd whip out my gun in 1.3 seconds and put 6 very well aimed shots in BG's chest. And you know what...maybe you can. But when BG's wife/mother/children sue you for killing him in civil court, you will lose. And you will pay them everything you own for the rest of your life.
Baloney. I don't know what state you live in but if it is considered a legal shoot, I don't see how you can be found liable for any damages. Now I am sure that the family would try to sue you but I am not so sure that a jury of 12 would actually give them the verdict. Of course we all know that this country and its culture is going down the tubes so I cannot say that with 100% certainty. However, if you lose you can always appeal to a higher court. Another thing is you can threaten to counter-sue if they sue you. They sue you to pay for the criminal so then you sue them for the pain and damages you went through dealing with the bastard that they chose to give birth to. Maybe then the jury would see the lunacy of it and throw the whole case out. However, I do believe that good citizens somewhere have to be willing to make some sacrifices for the greater good. Virtuous deeds are already a rarity these days and if it gets to the point where they are completely non-existent, then it will further increase the speed of our society getting flushed down the toilet.
 

J.A.G.

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Guys,

You are missing my point. For one, I'm sort of playing devils advocate here. I am like you all, and wish that carrying a firearm wherever I go should be the norm. I shouldn't have to apply for a permit or license that gives me permission to exercise a right, nor should I have to worry about eating the pavement if a soccer mom sees me open carrying down Beverly Blvd and calls the cops, and they respond with excessive force. Believe me, I want what you want... to be able to protect myself and my loved ones.

But... like I said. If you are in a situation, and you need to use lethal force to protect yourself or someone else - the jury might not see it the way you do. The opposing lawyer will not see it that way either, and will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight. And with todays courts, and liberal society and media, who do you think is going to win?

Yes, there are cases where a person defended themselves, and it was seen as self defense, and they were not prosecuted. But there have been cases showing the opposite.
 

deepdiver

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J.A.G. wrote:
Guys,

You are missing my point. For one, I'm sort of playing devils advocate here. I am like you all, and wish that carrying a firearm wherever I go should be the norm. I shouldn't have to apply for a permit or license that gives me permission to exercise a right, nor should I have to worry about eating the pavement if a soccer mom sees me open carrying down Beverly Blvd and calls the cops, and they respond with excessive force. Believe me, I want what you want... to be able to protect myself and my loved ones.

But... like I said. If you are in a situation, and you need to use lethal force to protect yourself or someone else - the jury might not see it the way you do. The opposing lawyer will not see it that way either, and will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight. And with todays courts, and liberal society and media, who do you think is going to win?

Yes, there are cases where a person defended themselves, and it was seen as self defense, and they were not prosecuted. But there have been cases showing the opposite.
Like many gun issues, it depends on where you live. MO passed a castle doctrine law last year that bars any civil suit from the BG or his family or anyone on his/her behalf if the shooting is deemed justified by the authorities or so ruled by a jury. Other states have similar statutes protecting the right of self-defense and eliminating the very real problem of BGs or their families suing someone defending themselves and taking far more from the victim than any theft ever could. Call it judicial home invasion and theft if you prefer.
 

J.A.G.

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deepdiver wrote:
J.A.G. wrote:
Guys,

You are missing my point. For one, I'm sort of playing devils advocate here. I am like you all, and wish that carrying a firearm wherever I go should be the norm. I shouldn't have to apply for a permit or license that gives me permission to exercise a right, nor should I have to worry about eating the pavement if a soccer mom sees me open carrying down Beverly Blvd and calls the cops, and they respond with excessive force. Believe me, I want what you want... to be able to protect myself and my loved ones.

But... like I said. If you are in a situation, and you need to use lethal force to protect yourself or someone else - the jury might not see it the way you do. The opposing lawyer will not see it that way either, and will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight. And with todays courts, and liberal society and media, who do you think is going to win?

Yes, there are cases where a person defended themselves, and it was seen as self defense, and they were not prosecuted. But there have been cases showing the opposite.
Like many gun issues, it depends on where you live.  MO passed a castle doctrine law last year that bars any civil suit from the BG or his family or anyone on his/her behalf if the shooting is deemed justified by the authorities or so ruled by a jury.  Other states have similar statutes protecting the right of self-defense and eliminating the very real problem of BGs or their families suing someone defending themselves and taking far more from the victim than any theft ever could.  Call it judicial home invasion and theft if you prefer.

That is the first I've ever heard of that...but it sounds excellent...and it's about time.

thx - no, I am not JAG...those are my initials.
 
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