New Petition for State wide open carry

[Aj Weaver]

Ahh. I had a hard time (in the short time I had) finding reliable information on who is running where. I still haven't found official state information on registered candidates by district. Anyone have that handy?

This isn't State wide just for Denton County, but this is where I got my information.

http://www.dentongop.org/Candidates/

 

[jecsd1]

Rushcreek, It's good to see you back on the forum! As much as I hate to say it, I think you're right that licensed OC is the best bet for us this coming session. I would really like to see several bills submitted though. One for licensed OC, one for unlicensed OC and one for flat out (no more CHL) Constitutional Carry. Let them choose which one to vote on.

AJ, I also think it's a great idea for you to try to coordinate with the LSCDL. For a small group of folks, we did pretty good last time.

 

[rushcreek2]

It's good to hear from you too , JC . Even though I'm no longer a Texas resident, I still spend a fair amount of my time down there so Texas law still affects my lifestyle. Because of that - the Texas "problem" still weighs on my mind.

I understand the rationale behind the comprehensive approach embodied in HB 2756, but.....if the narrowed issue approach is more successful in court challenges, would that principle not also apply to legislative efforts as well - especially given the short "attention span" of the Texas legislature.

The Heller & McDonald SCOTUS decisions did not achieve a comprehensive reset of the 2A to it's 1791 status, but at least a step was achieved in the right direction. Texans must first break the Reconstruction era inertia that preserves the two "crimes" defined by sections 46.02(a), and 46.035(a)

For example, if 46.02(a) was simply amended to read "concealed handgun " the scope of the criminal offense defined would then reflect the intent of Article 1, Section 23. That coupled with repeal of Section 46.035(a) would clear the way for the CHL to become the CONCEALED handgun license that its title suggests. That would be some noteworthy "housekeeping" for the Legislature in 2013.

A narrow approach of simply addressing the obvious constitutional inconsistencies of 46.02(a) & 46.035(a) would transform the CHL into a concealed handgun license - just like those issued by other states that are recognized by Texas. Then it is no longer any more of a crime in Texas to otherwise lawfully carry a handgun openly than it is to carry a shotgun or rifle openly. You don't presently have any problem with people in Texas attempting to enter private premises controlled by 30.06 signs carrying shotguns, and rifles openly ? Then why is it going to be a problem with openly carried handguns ?

 

[Aj Weaver]

Rushcreek2

I've done some more research on it... there is a little more to it than just those two statutes... I currently have a bill submitted the Sen Nelson's office. It would make unlicensed open carry legal. We'll see how it goes...

 

[()pen(arry]

Rushcreek2

I've done some more research on it... there is a little more to it than just those two statutes... I currently have a bill submitted the Sen Nelson's office. It would make unlicensed open carry legal. We'll see how it goes...

Again, you ought to do some more background research before you make posts like this in these forums. I promise there are a number of people in here that know an awful lot more about this than you or I do, and they've done everything you want to do and more. Ask how you can get involved, rather than telling people they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Aj Weaver]

I'm in no way saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about. The items he mentioned are the first two things that I did in bill that I drafted and sent to Sen Nelson. I was just saying that it sounded so simple the way he put it. If the only thing that was done was edit those two sections of the Texas Code then local municipalities would be able to ban the Carry of Firearms. Section 229.001(a), Local Government Code.

Also you wouldn't be able to carry into ANY establishment that served or sold Alcohol. Section 61.11(a), Alcoholic Beverage Code. Unless they had a permit. If you send me an E-mail I will let you read the bill proposal.... I can't get it to upload here or I would let everybody read it.

 

[rushcreek2]

I think that, given the Texas Legislature's brief and compacted bi-annual sessions that are heavily tilted towards an emphasis on budget issues like funding for public education, Texans should employ a sharp, narrow approach in removing the impediments to open carry.

Rereading HB 2756 this morning - for the life of me I still cannot see the need for amending the Government code, the Alcohol Beverage Code, the Family Code, and whatever else codes to read "handgun" rather than "concealed handgun".

I have a valid Texas CONCEALED Handgun License in my wallet right now. It is NOT a HANDGUN license. It is a "CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE ". Please BEAR with me for a minute. (pun perhaps intended)

IF...... Texans would like to change the existing law to where a citizen can carry a holstered handgun in the public square for the lawful purpose of self defense - then Section 46.02 must be amended to insert "concealed " immediately preceding "handgun" in Section 46.02(a). Forget the illegal knives, & clubs.

This simple amendment would transform the CHL from a handgun license into a CONCEALED handgun license.

Citizens in Texas would no longer need a CHL in order to carry a handgun. They would only need a CHL, or reciprocal permit/license in order to carry a CONCEALED handgun. That having been said , obviously obtaining a CHL would be a good idea for a variety of other reasons.

Incidental to this foregoing amendment - necessarily repeal Section 46.035(a) which is nothing more than a redundant reflection of Section 42.01 (a,8) - disorderly conduct involving the public display of a firearm in a manner calculated to cause alarm.

Do not get involved with the various private premises concerns -particularly the Section 30.06 signage. Let the CHL be the CONCEALED HANDGUN license that it was intended to be , and should be. Accomplish these limited amendment goals, and you separate the open carry issue from the concealed handgun carry issue.

 

[jecsd1]

Rush,
After reading that post and perusing the related statutes, that seems like a very simple way to accomplish OC. All I would add is a provision in chapter 42 that reads something to the affect of "the act of carrying a firearm, in and of itself, does not classify as an offense" to protect people from LE's subjective definition of "calculated to alarm"

Is't so simple. That would effectively make OC "Constitutional" without touching CHL or their precious 30.06. I like it!

 

[Aj Weaver]

Here is the Change I propose to the TABC:

(a) Each holder of a permit who is not otherwise required to display a sign under Section 411.204, Government Code, shall display in a prominent place on the permit holder's premises a sign giving notice that it is unlawful for a person to carry a [weapon] "concealed handgun" on the premises unless the [weapon is a] concealed handgun "is" of the same category the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

[ Words to be deleted]

"words to Add"

As far as State Preemption I added

Section 229.001(a), Local Government Code, is amended to read as follows:
(a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, wearing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies.


HB2756 was written to Change the CHL to a HL (Handgun License)

 

[jecsd1]

Here is the Change I propose to the TABC:

(a) Each holder of a permit who is not otherwise required to display a sign under Section 411.204, Government Code, shall display in a prominent place on the permit holder's premises a sign giving notice that it is unlawful for a person to carry a [weapon] "concealed handgun" on the premises unless the [weapon is a] concealed handgun "is" of the same category the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

[ Words to be deleted]

"words to Add"

As far as State Preemption I added

Section 229.001(a), Local Government Code, is amended to read as follows:
(a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, wearing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies.


HB2756 was written to Change the CHL to a HL (Handgun License)

AJ, I can appreciate your approach. Even though you don't suggest linking OC to CHL directly, we have found that any bill that requires the 30.06 sign to prohibit OC and CC will be opposed by TSRA and many CHLers.

In your prososed bil, a CHL holder would be allowed to OC or CC depending on their preference right? If a business owner wanted to ban OC (because they don't want the customers scared) they would post a valid 30.06 sign. This would effectively ban ALL carry, not just OC. The TSRA won't stand for that and it will be killed, just like HB2756 was.

 

[Aj Weaver]

In your prososed bil, a CHL holder would be allowed to OC or CC depending on their preference right? If a business owner wanted to ban OC (because they don't want the customers scared) they would post a valid 30.06 sign. This would effectively ban ALL carry, not just OC. The TSRA won't stand for that and it will be killed, just like HB2756 was.

Ok I see what you are saying... I will look into changing that... I want to maximize my support....

 

[Aj Weaver]

OK so I took your advice and edited my proposal and am not touching 30.06 at all. Instead I gave a way for business owners to stop OC without touching CHL. Anyone who wants a copy let me know.... jecsd1 I will send it to you...

 

[Trap]

Out of all the states I never expected Texas to be restrictive on gun rights. I thought everyone down there carried! Hell I thought that is where the "Don't mess with Texas" came from.

 

[rushcreek2]

Trap - The Texas situation is a bit hard to fathom- unless you've had the opportunity to live in Texas for a while. Perhaps due to the geographical dissonance, and diverse cultural/political dispositions found in Texas - the odds are that you , or I could walk down Sixth St in Downtown Austin anytime of the day with a holstered handgun, and never generate any public or LEO response. That is the CULTURAL reality in Texas. The statutory reality in Texas is sadly another matter.

Unlicensed (unregulated) carry of a handgun is probably not going to pass the Texas Legislature in 2013, but repeal of the Section 46.035(a) concealment requirement WITH A LICENSE is highly likely.

 

[jecsd1]

Trap - The Texas situation is a bit hard to fathom- unless you've had the opportunity to live in Texas for a while. Perhaps due to the geographical dissonance, and diverse cultural/political dispositions found in Texas - the odds are that you , or I could walk down Sixth St in Downtown Austin anytime of the day with a holstered handgun, and never generate any public or LEO response. That is the CULTURAL reality in Texas. The statutory reality in Texas is sadly another matter.

Unlicensed (unregulated) carry of a handgun is probably not going to pass the Texas Legislature in 2013, but repeal of the Section 46.035(a) concealment requirement WITH A LICENSE is highly likely.

Rush, I think thats true. We may be resorting to a baby steps approach if we can secure the "blessing" of the powers that be.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewto...sid=3992575a9d6e384797e563ae7e05627f&start=15

It seems we may not be the only ones thinking that way.

 

[rushcreek2]

jecsd1 - Very promising . It appears that a workable consensus is possible this go-around.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I see nothing but huge problems for us if licensed open carry is passed. constant stops, ID checks, harassment, etc.

question about mcdonald v. chicago, did they or did they not opine that the 2nd amendment is a fundamental right requiring strict scrutiny? has the 5th circuit ever done so?

 

[cloudcroft]

Licensed or unlicensed OC in TX will be "interesting" when it comes to those issues you pose re: how cops will react. But you know, when something is new, it takes some getting used to. Especially by the cops (and of course citizens getting used to seeing other citizens OCing). At least there is SOME experience the cops have with armed citizens, even if presently TX citizens can only CC, at least the cops are KIND of used to that.

Imagine a state like super-repressive Hawaii -- where citizens have NO history of EITHER CC or OC...imagine the first day one of those becomes legal!

Aloha...

 

[KBCraig]

I see nothing but huge problems for us if licensed open carry is passed. constant stops, ID checks, harassment, etc.

Such stops will be just as unconstitutional as stopping a driver to check for a license, when there is no probably cause to believe he has broken the law.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Such stops will be just as unconstitutional as stopping a driver to check for a license, when there is no probably cause to believe he has broken the law.

and while I agree with you, what is that going to matter to the system? someone gets stopped, harassed, files a complain, nothing really happens except a training bulletin will go out, and for the next few months to a year, this will continue until someone files suit. then the judge either finds summary judgement for the cops/city for public safety reasons or suit is dismissed as cops/city gets qualified immunity because the law is new, OR city settles for small amount like madison did and nothing changes for a few years.