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John R. Lott, Jr., CPRSC. Should schools have teachers carry guns? AAHB Health Behavior Research December 2018

eye95

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Don't know where you live. But if I'm my state put up a no trespassing sign.
A no gun sign means nothing here as does your "notice" as my right to be armed while on your land is absolute and nothing you can do anything about.

Except tell me to leave.. verbally, which I must do legally.

Give it your best shot, dude. You are on notice.

Literally, everyone else who respects property Rights, come on, and bring your firearms.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Give it your best shot, dude. You are on notice.

Literally, everyone else who respects property Rights, come on, and bring your firearms.

You mean you'll tell me to leave before the hotdogs are done? Not even knowing what I look like lol. Me not even knowing what state your in lol.

I'm crushed. Lol.

Seriously this is getting goofy even though it's had it's funnier moments.

I'll do my best to stay off your lawn if I ever know where it is LOL.
 

Ghost1958

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ummmmmmmmm. the 2nd amendment only applies to government. it applies to the government to the extent that government is not allowed to infringe on anyone's right to keep and bear arms.

Where does the 2A state it only applies to government please.

Honestly where in the COTUS does it state that inalienable rights in the BOR are only protected from government?
 

OC for ME

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The Bill of Rights was created to limit government actions, not my my actions. Actual effectiveness notwithstanding.

Government was instituted, by We The People, to set a system of laws in place that should check our behavior where the exercise of our rights conflict. Trespass laws are a example of these checks on citizen behavior. If I post a no guns sign on my property, that is fair notice to my fellow citizens and their entry on my property while armed is a clear violation of my property rights and the law.

I am not obliged to defend your rights, or recognize them, unless I am willing to do so. But I am obliged to not violate them or else suffer the consequences.

This fact is exercised every day, all across the country. We routinely violate our fellow citizen's 1A and there is no remedy under the law for those whose 1A I restrict on my property. The 2A is no different in this regard.

Disarming you for trespassing would be a assault on your person, and a theft of your private property. Thus the 2A is not at issue given your parameters.

Edit to add:
569.140. Trespass in the first degree — penalty. — http://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=569.140&bid=34963&hl=
569.145. Posting of property against trespassers, purple paint used to mark streets and posts, requirements. — http://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=569.145&bid=29574&hl=
 
Last edited:

eye95

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You mean you'll tell me to leave before the hotdogs are done? Not even knowing what I look like lol. Me not even knowing what state your in lol.

I'm crushed. Lol.

Seriously this is getting goofy even though it's had it's funnier moments.

I'll do my best to stay off your lawn if I ever know where it is LOL.

I am serious.

If you are truly fighting for Liberty, I will be by your side.

If you are fighting for your ability to be libertine, which is what I am seeing, I will fight you tooth and nail.

You are prohibited from carrying on my property. You are on notice.

Written notice. Screen shots have been taken of you responding to my posts.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
I am serious.

If you are truly fighting for Liberty, I will be by your side.

If you are fighting for your ability to be libertine, which is what I am seeing, I will fight you tooth and nail.

You are prohibited from carrying on my property. You are on notice.

Written notice. Screen shots have been taken of you responding to my posts.

Don't care. If your in my state. You can't tell me not to come Armed.
You can tell me not to be in your land, with a no trespassing sign, or verbally.

Again in my state your screen shot notice of no gun on your propety means no more than a no gun sign on your front gate.
Your state apparently is different judging from what you think you can legally do.

In short. In my state, if I'm armed or not has nothing to do with anything.

You can put up a no trespassing sign.
You can verbally tell me you don't want me on your land.
You can verbally tell me to leave your land.
Armed or not armed.

Gun has zip to do with anything in my state and most others.
 

solus

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here nc
Let me put it this way, you, in particular, are barred from carry on my private property. If you do try to exercise your perceived “right” on my property, I will exercise my actual Rights, to whatever extent Ohio law allows and is necessary to stop you. You are on notice.

Everyone else who respects the property Rights of others, you and your weapons are generally welcome.

Certainly sounds like premeditated threats being advocated against a citizen on a public forum.
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Certainly sounds like premeditated threats being advocated against a citizen on a public forum.
Sorry this was supposed to have quoted the Eye.


Let's see. Last I looked Ohio was a state where no gun signs have force of law.
So if you put one up and I hire Magnum PI or somebody to get your address, and let you know it's me, and show you I'm armed, you can tell me to go and call the cops on me for criminal trespass. That's the legal extent you have available.

Having dealt with Ohio LE several times IF they pursued it enough to catch this desperate trespasser , which I highly doubt, I'd get a warning and be on my way.


But this is getting silly. You patrol your perimeter looking for me lol.

On Topic , teachers and staff ready have the right to be armed in school. Hasn't been but a few decades there wasn't even the unconstitutional law banning it.

And no mass school shootings. Proof is in the pudding.
 

since9

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That said, we must agree to disagree again.

Sorry, but I cannot agree to that as I am generally not a disagreeable person. :)

Until fairly recently teachers janitors, even the students on occasion could and did carry a firearm to school.

What do mean by "fairly recently?" I went to grade school in Florida in the 60's and 70s, middle school in Louisiana in the 70s, and high school in Virginia in the late 70s. From K-on there were no firearms allowed in schools.

But I could bring my line-control airplane, which I did in the third grade. :)

Please stop hopping all over the constitution trying to find a part that invalidates the 2A...

I've never done anything of the sort, Ghost.

Though the RTKABA does not require the 2A to exist, the 2A is one simple sentence barring anyone the authority to limit or interfere with the RTKABA.

I'll agree with that. However, the RKABA has never been ubiquitous. There are limits, namely, the same ones which balance between where one's rights end and another's rights begin. The right of free speech and the right to peace, for example. Your right to speak freely at two in the morning is trumped by my right to peace. Similarly, my right to enjoy a peaceful afternoon at the park is trumped by your right to speak freely on a soap box.

The difference between these is one of normalcy. It's normal to sleep at 2 am. It's not normal to be spouting off on one's soap box within earshot of others. On the other hand, it's normal to orate during the day, preferably the afternoon. It's not normal to be sleeping in the park at that time.

Even SCOTUS cannot point to any part of the 2A or COTUS for that matter that grants anyone that authority.
"

Yours is a common misconception about the Constitution. In general, law does not grant powers. Rather, law restricts them, and then, good laws do so only in for the common good.

Thus, the law doesn't grant anyone the authority to brush their teeth, shine their shoes, or when to take a shower. It might, however, restrict showers to every other day if there's a severe water shortage. Water for drinking, after all, is more important than bathing.

Police and military are actually much more limited as to where they can go than the citizen

Again, I don't know what state you live in, there, Ghost, but not here in Colorado. In fact, if you read the Colorado Revised Statues for apprehension, detainment and arrest, you'll find the permissions and limitations are identical. The only difference is that law enforcement can serve warrants whereas I can't. They can also arrest for minor infractions and a few other things, whereas my arrest authority as a private citizen is limited to having witnessed a crime in progress and RAS that a crime is about to be committed. Thus, if I spy a gun pulling a gun from his pocket before turning the corner at a gas station and heading for the front door, yes, I can arrest him, and if he resists, I can fire and won't go to jail.

That said, we are never going agree.

Oh, I dunno, Ghost. I think half of our "disagreements" are based in semantics. The rest is rooted in lack of a full understanding, both yours and mine. I am by no means an expert. It's why I frequent this place. Keeps me sharp, looking stuff up. On my toes.

The COTUS says what it says. Courts and judges, tradition, precedents and unconstitutional laws, no matter how many times quoted do not change that.

The very fact there exists the phrase "legislating from the bench" attests otherwise. I would love it if we fired all the lawyers and rewrote the law from the ground up by semanticists. Might actually cut through 99% of the problems in America.

Agree to disagree and let's leave it at that.

If you really meant that, then why do you keep posting?

Shoot someone on your property, not illegally entering your home because they have a holstered firearm on and see what happens.

In Colorado, the mere presence of an uninvited person inside one's domicile is grounds for alarm and reasonable fear for one's life, limb, and property. Does not matter whether they're armed or not.

Even if you tell them to leave.
Even if you have a no trespassing sign.
Or a moat.

Do that and I hope you look good in stripes.

Where do you live, anyway? California?

I'm not confusing anything. I live in a strong castle state and SYG state.

Doesn't sound like it to me.

Come in my home or occupied vehicle and illegally, your turtle meat, armed or not armed. Legally.

Other than that.
There is no state in the nation where the property owner has the authority to disarm a person on their property simply because they don't want them there with a gun.

Wanna bet?

They have every right to tell them to leave.

If you're in my living room uninvited, I am authorized by state law to shoot you dead. In fact, I've followed the local news for a decade, and that's precisely the way it's handled.

And every chance of being quite legally shot in their own lawn if they actively try to disarm the person just because they are there, making no threats but armed.

Sounds to me like you live in a very liberal state, there, Ghost. Enjoy that. If someone enters my property and shoots me, they're the ones who're going to jail. Not I.

Methinks you're thinking is both confused and more than a bit befuddled on this issue. Perhaps your state laws are, as well.
 

since9

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If I post a no guns sign on my property, that is fair notice to my fellow citizens and their entry on my property while armed is a clear violation of my property rights and the law.

Same in my state. Same in a state in which I used to live. My best friend's baseball coach had a 1 acre lot. Fence all around. "No Trespassing" and "WARNING - DANGER - DOG" signs about every 30 feet. Couldn't miss 'em. Even so, about once a year some knucklehead would stick their hand over the fence and suffer excrutiating pain as the dog latched on, not letting go until his master gave him the verbal command.

The dog, you see, was a police dog, and the master was a K9 police officer.

He was sued every time, yet not once did the judge allow the lawsuit to proceed, as it was frivolous, and not because he was a police officer.

I am not obliged to defend your rights, or recognize them, unless I am willing to do so. But I am obliged to not violate them or else suffer the consequences.

Well said.

Disarming you for trespassing would be a assault on your person, and a theft of your private property. Thus the 2A is not at issue given your parameters.

Shooting trespassers dead goes a few steps further, but that's allowed inside domiciles in most states with Castle laws, as well, and there's no requirement to post the place, either. The law considers it posted if it's not one's own domicile.


You can't tell me not to come Armed.

Don't come armed.

You can tell me not to be in your land, with a no trespassing sign, or verbally.

In my state, the law recognizes the fact that it's not your domicile to be notice enough.


So if you put one up and I hire Magnum PI or somebody to get your address, and let you know it's me, and show you I'm armed, you can tell me to go and call the cops on me for criminal trespass. That's the legal extent you have available.

Having dealt with Ohio LE several times IF they pursued it enough to catch this desperate trespasser , which I highly doubt, I'd get a warning and be on my way.


But this is getting silly. You patrol your perimeter looking for me lol.[/quote]

This entire time I've been very specific about entering the domicile. I've mentioned B&E. I've mentioned inside the home. I've mentioned a lot of things.

Quite disingenuously, you keep talking about the area of property between the property line and the domicile.
 

Ghost1958

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Same in my state. Same in a state in which I used to live. My best friend's baseball coach had a 1 acre lot. Fence all around. "No Trespassing" and "WARNING - DANGER - DOG" signs about every 30 feet. Couldn't miss 'em. Even so, about once a year some knucklehead would stick their hand over the fence and suffer excrutiating pain as the dog latched on, not letting go until his master gave him the verbal command.

The dog, you see, was a police dog, and the master was a K9 police officer.

He was sued every time, yet not once did the judge allow the lawsuit to proceed, as it was frivolous, and not because he was a police officer.



Well said.



Shooting trespassers dead goes a few steps further, but that's allowed inside domiciles in most states with Castle laws, as well, and there's no requirement to post the place, either. The law considers it posted if it's not one's own domicile.




Don't come armed.



In my state, the law recognizes the fact that it's not your domicile to be notice enough.




Having dealt with Ohio LE several times IF they pursued it enough to catch this desperate trespasser , which I highly doubt, I'd get a warning and be on my way.


But this is getting silly. You patrol your perimeter looking for me lol.

This entire time I've been very specific about entering the domicile. I've mentioned B&E. I've mentioned inside the home. I've mentioned a lot of things.

Quite disingenuously, you keep talking about the area of property between the property line and the domicile.
[/QUOTE]

Well first you need to actually read what your quoting.
I plainly stated on your land . NOT in your home or occupied vehicle.

Shoot someone not threatening you in your lawn because he has a holstered firearm , again ,NOT in your home. You will go to prison.

I live in Ky. Break the plane of the window of my occupied vehicle or attempt to illegally enter my home and you are paid for. Armed ,not armed, eating an ice cream cone. Doesn't matter

By the same token here , you can paper the outside of your house with no gun signs, and it matters not at all. I do not have to ask your permission to be armed on your land or in your home. In my state I have the absolute right to be armed.

Same with a business.

Now. That said. You have every right to deny me entry armed or not. Or tell me to leave armed or not. The presence of the firearm or lack of one does not legally play into it all.

In short I have the absolute right in my state to be armed wherever I can legally be

I do not however have the right to be on private property armed or not armed if the landowner wishes me not to enter or stay. Simple trespass that has zip to do with my being armed or not.

Now y'all can have it until you can actually read what your quoting I posted.
 

solus

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Ghost, those ‘hairs’ being split out here are getting mighty thin, aren’t they.

Some ave difficulty with even the nomenclature being used!
 

since9

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Well first you need to actually read what your quoting.

That must be part I'm quoting, huh...

Shoot someone not threatening you in your lawn because he has a holstered firearm , again ,NOT in your home. You will go to prison.

Now you see, Ghost1958, I've never mentioned shooting anyone on one's lawn. I have specifically, and emphatically, limited my discussion regarding Castle laws and the rights and responsibilities therein to entering one's domicile i.e. inside the exterior walls of one's home. These days, a number of people have renovated barns into homes, so that applies to any domicile.

I live in Ky.

Thank you for sharing.

Break the plane of the window of my occupied vehicle...

Here in Colorado, the law specifically states one's vehicle is treated as an extension of one's home. The laws apply the same. I think that was a nod to those who live in their RVs, but it was a nice gesture on the part of the legislature. :)

...or attempt to illegally enter my home and you are paid for. Armed ,not armed, eating an ice cream cone. Doesn't matter

"Paid for"? Is that an euphemism for having bought the farm? I don't know whether it started in WWI or WWII, but many GIs were from farms. They'd routinely take out life insurance worth whatever the mortgage on the farm might be, plus enough extra to pay for a funeral. This gave rise to the expression, "He bought the farm."

By the same token here , you can paper the outside of your house with no gun signs, and it matters not at all.

Why would anyone want to paper the outside of their own home?
 

since9

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I do not have to ask your permission to be armed on your land or in your home. In my state I have the absolute right to be armed.

Ok, enough fooling around. You said you were from Kentucky. Looking up the law in Kentucky (see References):

In general, "there isn't any protected right to shoot trespassers... That's for crossing your property lines. If someone breaks into your house, that's not trespassing. That's B & E. In most locations, if you are inside the house, you have the right to protect yourself by the use of force, up to and including deadly force, against an intruder" (Johnson, S.).

And yet, the Kentucky Revised Statutes, Chapter511, defines criminal trespass as someone who "knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling" (Kentucky Constitution, 2019). The reference notes signage is pretty much N/A in Kentucky.

By contrast, "Colorado no trespassing laws are found in Title 18 Article 4 Part 502 – 504 of Colorado’s Revised Statutes. Trespassing occurs when someone “knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains” in or on a property in which they don’t have authorization or license to do so. Trespassing can either be a felony in criminal situations or a misdemeanor in other instances" (Heap, 2013).

Since Colorado citizens have lawful authority to arrest someone who commits a misdemeanor, I could arrest a person who was crossing my property. Whether I would actually do so or not is an entirely different matter. If they're passing through once, I'd look the other way. If they make it a habit, I'd given them a video recorded verbal warning, followed by a recorded written warning, then call the cops. If they chose not to interfere, I'd detain or arrest them and call the cops again. On the other hand, if I caught someone on my property taking firewood, I'd arrest them on the spot.

This will not be an exhaustive essay. Rather, I'm going to quote portions applicable to your claim, "In my state I have the absolute right to be armed," as opposed to a right limited by time, location, or situation. Also, I'm taking "armed" to mean "with a firearm" commensurate with the nature of these OCDO forums, as well as "capable of firing a live round," as an unloaded gun is little more than a paperweight.

Let's begin with "the supreme Law of the Land" aka The Constitution for the United States of America: "Amendment II: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" (National Archives, 2019).

Seems pretty clear to me, and if I'm not mistaken, we both agree it's absolute.

Kentucky law: OC requires no permit, but CC does (09jisaac, 2012). That's a restriction/infringement, ergo, being armed in your state is not absolute, but restricted and conditional.

You cannot carry loaded in a bar (244.125, Kentucky General Assembly, 2019). That's another restriction/condition, so again, your claim that your right to be armed in Kentucky is absolute is again in error. You also cannot carry into a K-12 school. 527.070 says you must leave your firearms in your vehicle. Same goes for work, unless your employer authorizes carry (it's his property).

As per .115 Construction of KRS 237.110, you cannot carry into government buildings (Kentucky General Assembly, 2019).

Bunches more. See References, below. Loads counters your "absolute right" claim.

I found it interesting that Section 219 of the Kentucky State Constitution says "the militia of the Commonwealth of Kentucky shall consist of all able-bodied male residents of the State between the ages of eighteen and forty-five years, except such persons as may be exempted by the laws of the State or of the United States" (Constitution of Kentucky, 2019).

As a catch-all, here's a list of areas where you most certainly do not have an absolute right to carry (GLBS, 2019):

CRIMINAL PROVISIONS
Under Kentucky law, a license to carry a handgun is not valid in any of the following places or circumstances, whether it was issued by Kentucky, or a person is carrying pursuant to a reciprocity between his or her state of license and Kentucky:
  • Any police station or sheriff’s office
  • A detention facility, prison or jail
  • The portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcohol for consumption on the premises, where that part of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose
  • A courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding
  • A school, including elementary, secondary, or day-care facility
  • Any part of an airport subject to inspection of persons and property
  • Universities may ban the carrying of weapons on their premises
  • The law does not prohibit the owners of private land to exclude individuals carrying firearms. Failure to leave private land when asked could result in criminal trespass charges [http://gunla.ws/s5rh]
  • Any place prohibited by federal law
Thus, in closing, I would like to restate your claim one last time:

In my state I have the absolute right to be armed.

As we have seen, with an abundance of clarity, citations, and references, that is a a false statement.

I would be happy to entertain any revised statements. My own statement would sound something like this:

While God gave us all the inherent right to preserve life, limb, and property, a fact reflected in our Constitutional Second Amendment's prohibition against any infringement on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, both the federal and statement governments have indeed infringed on our right to keep and bears to the extent where, as a practical matter, I have to decide between frequenting those few locations where carrying firearms are prohibited and carrying firearms.

In some instances, such as obtaining medical care on base and serving jury duty, I simply do not have a choice. I must disarm.

In the meantime, if you'd like, link this page and enjoy the references. :)

References

09jisaac. (2012). Kentucky gun laws (and others). Open Carry dot org. Retrieved from: https://forum.opencarry.org/index.php?threads/kentucky-gun-laws.99708/

GLBS. (2019). Kentucky gun laws. Retrieved from: https://www.gunlawsbystate.com/law/states/kentucky-gun-laws

HandgunLaw.us. (n.d.). Kentucky. Retrieved from: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf

Heap, D. (2013). State by state guide to no trespassing laws & signage. Signs.com. Retrieved from: https://www.signs.com/blog/state-by-state-guide-to-no-trespassing-laws-signage/

Johnson, S. (2015). What is the legality behind the "Trespassers Will Be Shot" sign? Quora. Retrieved from: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-legality-behind-the-Trespassers-Will-Be-Shot-sign

Kentucky General Assembly. (2019). Kentucky Revised Statutes. Retrieved from: https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/statutes/

Kentucky General Assembly. (2019). Constitution of Kentucky, including amendments ratified at the November 6, 2012 general election. Retrieved from: https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/constitution

Kentucky Government. (n.d.). White paper on open carry of firearms and concealed deadly weapons law in Kentucky. Retrieved from: https://docjt.ky.gov/legal/documents/WhitePaperonOpenCarryandCarryingv2.pdf

National Archives. (2019). The Constitution of the United States: A transcription. Retrieved from: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

NRA-ILA. (2014). Kentucky gun laws. Retrieved from: https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/kentucky/
 

Ghost1958

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Messages
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Kentucky
Yep know all of it. Everything you posted.

What you left out with the exception of federal property, there is no criminal charge that can attach to carrying anywhere in this state.

By statute. The only thing that can be done is deny entry, verbally or ask the armed person to leave verbally. If one remains after being told to leave then LE may be called to escort one out and possibly a criminal trespass charge. Though I've never heard of that happening.

Trespass. No different than being told to leave because of your shirt color.



That's it and that's all.

OC needs nothing. The concealed regulations don't even apply to OC.

OC cases are dismissed out of hand to the point there is no case law regarding OC except stopping a Kentuckian for it is a officers nightmare.

Carry in a bar. Law says your gun can be confiscated . To my knowledge has never happened. Put a loaded mag in a holder and a empty pistol OC in a bar and there is nothing LE can do about it.

Ky cc law was a bad joke to get cc passed here while making sure no penalty can apply for carry besides being asked to leave ,even in state prohibited places.

Nice research ,but I could have told you all that in one sentence.

Carry in Ky OC or cc cannot result in more than being verbally denied entry or verbally told to leave . comply no law is broken. Not even if a KSP officer watched you go in he cannot act until the property owner verbally says go. If you go he still can't do fiddly.

I dont know what government buildings your talking about . carry is legal in all state government buildings OC or cc save justice centers where criminal court is held.

As I said I have an absolute right to be armed anywhere I can legally be . Period.

I don't have an absolute right to be just everywhere armed or not armed.

Ky simply leaves the option for a prohibited place to deny entry verbally or ask to leave verbally and NO law is broken.

OC cannot even be regulated by the general Assembly per the state constitution.


Nut shell , other than Fed I can carry where I please and the WORST that can happen is I'll be asked to leave. Never have been in 50 yrs though.
 

since9

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Yep know all of it. Everything you posted.

What you left out with the exception of federal property, there is no criminal charge that can attach to carrying anywhere in this state.

By statute. The only thing that can be done is deny entry, verbally or ask the armed person to leave verbally. If one remains after being told to leave then LE may be called to escort one out and possibly a criminal trespass charge. Though I've never heard of that happening.[

Trespass. No different than being told to leave because of your shirt color.

That's it and that's all.

I see. So, instead of being a respectful member of society, you're going to bully your way through and make a general ass of yourself, instead?

I dont know what government buildings your talking about . carry is legal in all state government buildings OC or cc save justice centers where criminal court is held.

That matches the resources I posted.

As I said I have an absolute right to be armed anywhere I can legally be . Period.

The law says otherwise, there, Ghost1958. Sorry to see you're understanding of it is so sadly lacking.

I'm done.
 

Ghost1958

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Messages
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Kentucky
I see. So, instead of being a respectful member of society, you're going to bully your way through and make a general ass of yourself, instead?



That matches the resources I posted.



The law says otherwise, there, Ghost1958. Sorry to see you're understanding of it is so sadly lacking.

I'm done.


Emm no. I'm not bullying anything. Im exercising my constitutional right to be armed. Most times in such places nobody knows or actually even cares if folks are coming in past a no gun sign. And in my state no law is broken until I refuse a verbal request to leave which I would not refuse.


Yes you are done as am I.

But you left out " but I don't legally have a right to be just anywhere ".

Can't discuss a subject if one side only quotes part of the other sides position.

As I wanted quite a, while ago, we will just have to agree to disagree.
 

solus

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To think all this thread drift pontification on a thread discussing Lotts’s article ‘Should schools have teachers carry guns?’
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
To think all this thread drift pontification on a thread discussing Lotts’s article ‘Should schools have teachers carry guns?’

Back on topic, I hope, yes if they wish, with no requirements as is their right as citizens.
 
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