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IHOP Sierra Vista no weapons policy

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
OC Freedom, I think you're going to find that in just about every state, trespass statutes still carry the weight of law whether one has a gun or not. I know plenty of Floridians, Virginians and others who have this idea that "signs don't mean anything to me", but they completely neglect that while signs may not result in a weapons charge, they certainly may result in a trespassing charge. Depending on the state, trespass may not carry a particularly harsh punishment (I think Ohio leaves trespass as a minor misdemeanor, but Virginia treats it as a serious misdemeanor), but it is still considered a crime. In Virginia it can get you a $1000 fine and 12 months in jail.
 
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OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
OC Freedom, I think you're going to find that in just about every state, trespass statutes still carry the weight of law whether one has a gun or not. I know plenty of Floridians, Virginians and others who have this idea that "signs don't mean anything to me", but they completely neglect that while signs may not result in a weapons charge, they certainly may result in a trespassing charge. Depending on the state, trespass may not carry a particularly harsh punishment (I think Ohio leaves trespass as a minor misdemeanor, but Virginia treats it as a serious misdemeanor), but it is still considered a crime. In Virginia it can get you a $1000 fine and 12 months in jail.

In Idaho the gun buster sign has zero power and cannot be used towards tresspassing. A person has to be asked to leave and then if you refuse to comply then tresspass comes into play. I was asked to leave a Safeway once in Sandpoint, Idaho by the manager, During our conservation he explainded to me the reason they didn't put up a sign at their store was their attorney informed them that they have to verbally ask the person to leave. The manager also said to me that they rarely see someone open carry and that the decision was made that posting wasn't even necessary in hopes that customers would comply. I never did patronize that safeway agian.
 

The Trickster

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
216
Location
Arizona
OC Freedom, I think you're going to find that in just about every state, trespass statutes still carry the weight of law whether one has a gun or not. I know plenty of Floridians, Virginians and others who have this idea that "signs don't mean anything to me", but they completely neglect that while signs may not result in a weapons charge, they certainly may result in a trespassing charge. Depending on the state, trespass may not carry a particularly harsh punishment (I think Ohio leaves trespass as a minor misdemeanor, but Virginia treats it as a serious misdemeanor), but it is still considered a crime. In Virginia it can get you a $1000 fine and 12 months in jail.

Since there is absolutely no case law to back it up, the notion that one can be arrested here in Arizona for trespassing while OCing in a private establishment that has a posted sign based only on the fact that the sign serves as notice to enable a trespassing charge is purely hypothetical. It's possibly possible. :p Has it ever happened? Not to anyone's knowledge. Here's the way it will most likely go, probably 99.99% of the time: I OC in a private business that is posted; employee informs me of the sign and policy and asks me to secure the weapon or leave; I refuse and the employee calls law enforcement; law enforcement arrives, tells me to leave, and threatens an arrest for trespassing if I refuse; I refuse or act like a fool and get arrested.
Fortunately, everyone can avoid such issues by following these few, simple steps:
1. Respect private property rights and don't bring your gun in a place that is posted or you know doesn't allow firearms.
2. If you ignore their sign/policy to disarm, don't be confrontational when asked to disarm or leave; do one or the other and complain to the owners/corporate.
3. If law enforcement is called without an employee ever contacting you about the issue, refer to step 2.
4. What sign?

With few exceptions due to dire circumstances, step 1 is the best way to do things IMO.
 
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MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
I would like to visit Arizona, but until this "signs have force of law" BS is in effect, I will stick to states where signs have no force of law like in my home state of Idaho. That paragraph above is explanation enough to keep me out of Arizona. An Open Carrier should not have to worry about playing russian roulette patronizing a business while minding your own.

Don't make too much of it. Don't let it keep you out of AZ. Many of us OC regularly, and the vast majority of business are not posted, nor have any problem with it.
 

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
Don't make too much of it. Don't let it keep you out of AZ. Many of us OC regularly, and the vast majority of business are not posted, nor have any problem with it.

Your and trickster's responses are appreciated. I just have concern with such type of laws for they seem to be designed for entrapment or at least to discourage legal activity with the threat of criminal charges.

I am glad to hear that it hasn't been applied to open carriers by your knowlege, and as open carriers I assume you two keep up on such things.
 

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Yikes - a year in jail & $1,000 for simple trespass in VA! Now that is harsh indeed.

It is harsh, but in practical terms a prosecutor would need to demonstrate to a jury that a person had willfully ignored signs posted such that a person would reasonably see and read them and be made aware that their presence is forbidden. Although one could be prosecuted for simply ignoring the signs that made them aware that their presence is forbidden, it is easier to demonstrate that the person was verbally forbidden to enter or remain on a property for a successful prosecution. The burden of proof is significant, so prosecution isn't just done willy nilly. Even then a first time offender isn't likely to see the huge fine or the jail time.

A local dumbo shot himself in the leg in a restaurant clearly marked "No Guns" at the entrance here a few years ago and even he didn't get charged with trespassing. I OC more freely in Virginia than I did in the couple years in Arizona and haven't found an issue with the trespass statutes of either state. I imagine you'll be just fine in Arizona or Virginia, OC Freedom.
 
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The Trickster

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
216
Location
Arizona
Your and trickster's responses are appreciated. I just have concern with such type of laws for they seem to be designed for entrapment or at least to discourage legal activity with the threat of criminal charges.

I am glad to hear that it hasn't been applied to open carriers by your knowlege, and as open carriers I assume you two keep up on such things.

ARS 13-1500 through 1504 are the trespassing statutes for Arizona. Feel free to peruse through them if you'd like, particularly 13-1501 which would be the most relevant one concerning this particular subject. http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp

OC is quite prevalent here in Arizona. Additionally, most of my fellow Arizonans are pro-gun people. There are, of course, a few exceptions to the rule; usually folks from other states where guns are taboo. Even then it has been my experience that folks who settle down here in Arizona tend to change their mindset on guns and the 2A by coming to the realization that they're not as scary and evil as they were once led to believe. Indeed, the cure for ignorance is sometimes exposure and by being able to exercise your 2A rights in a state that minimally intrudes on that right is a wonderful cure for such a disease.
 

Rusty Young Man

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Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
SNIP...Even then it has been my experience that folks who settle down here in Arizona tend to change their mindset on guns and the 2A by coming to the realization that they're not as scary and evil as they were once led to believe. Indeed, the cure for ignorance is sometimes exposure and by being able to exercise your 2A rights in a state that minimally intrudes on that right is a wonderful cure for such a disease.

I am still amazed by how many erroneous notions can be dispelled by an hour at the range.

Concerning the topic at hand: I may sometimes wander into posted businesses (has happened when the sign is not very conspicuous, which is most likely done on purpose), but I make it a point not to patronize any anti-Freedom businesses if I can help it (and I usually can, though at the loss of convenience).

I would, however, like to see the signs go down, seeing as entering a posted private business (regardless of whether or not said signs have the force of law) kind of goes against individual liberty.:confused:
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Your and trickster's responses are appreciated. I just have concern with such type of laws for they seem to be designed for entrapment or at least to discourage legal activity with the threat of criminal charges.

I am glad to hear that it hasn't been applied to open carriers by your knowledge, and as open carriers I assume you two keep up on such things.

Interestingly enough, it is an affirmative defense that the 'no open carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol' law does not apply to visitors from out of state. Affirmative defense means that you can actually be detained by police (if it were to go that far) while they check you out and, I assume, tell you not to do it but that they can't arrest you for it.

Though I am an AZ property owner, I am officially a NV resident. While in AZ, I OC in restaurants that serve alcohol, and have never once even had someone care.
 
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The Trickster

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
216
Location
Arizona
I am still amazed by how many erroneous notions can be dispelled by an hour at the range.

Concerning the topic at hand: I may sometimes wander into posted businesses (has happened when the sign is not very conspicuous, which is most likely done on purpose), but I make it a point not to patronize any anti-Freedom businesses if I can help it (and I usually can, though at the loss of convenience).

I would, however, like to see the signs go down, seeing as entering a posted private business (regardless of whether or not said signs have the force of law) kind of goes against individual liberty.:confused:

Rusty, I have had some success getting signs removed over the past few years by simply contacting business owners and complaining. Though more pertinent to businesses that sell liquor, you'd be surprised how many owners believe(d) that they are/were required to post the signs and are/were unaware that they have an option. I make it a point to contact business owners and civilly discuss the matter with them whenever possible.
 

The Trickster

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
216
Location
Arizona
Interestingly enough, it is an affirmative defense that the 'no open carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol" law does not apply to visitors from out of state. Affirmative defense means that you can actually be detained by police (if it were to go that far) while they check you out and, I assume, tell you not to do it but that they can't arrest you for it.

Though I am an AZ property owner, I am officially a NV resident. While in AZ, I OC in restaurants that serve alcohol, and have never once even had someone care.

That is interesting and you are 100% correct about the non-resident part. I didn't even realize it until you mentioned it.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
OC Freedom, I think you're going to find that in just about every state, trespass statutes still carry the weight of law whether one has a gun or not. I know plenty of Floridians, Virginians and others who have this idea that "signs don't mean anything to me", but they completely neglect that while signs may not result in a weapons charge, they certainly may result in a trespassing charge. Depending on the state, trespass may not carry a particularly harsh punishment (I think Ohio leaves trespass as a minor misdemeanor, but Virginia treats it as a serious misdemeanor), but it is still considered a crime. In Virginia it can get you a $1000 fine and 12 months in jail.

I must disagree with your statement that "just about every state...." a no gun sign could end up in a trespass charge. While some states give signage for "no guns" the power of law, very few states allow such a sign to "ding" you for trespass. MOST states require a verbal instruction to leave followed by your refusal. In some instances, cops are getting "smart" and getting agreements with business owners to designate them as able to trespass you from private property....this is usually done for transient problems but can be used for other reasons. Then, the officer can trespass you without the owner complaining....but generally you still have to be told to leave and then not leave....or return after being trespassed previously.
 

Old Uncle Ho

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
36
Location
Tucson / Bangkok, ,
IHOP Cortero and I-10

IHOP on Ina and I-10 near the railroad track in Marana has been OK with OC for as long as I can remember. Prob'ly the SV manager is the real problem... and since the signs down... she's prob'ly gone (back to New Jersey or someplace).

I occasionally dine at the IHOP on Cortero and I-10 and have always open carried. As of a month ago, no problem.

Old uncle Ho aka Lynn McFadden
 
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