How far does the Second Amendment go?

[imperialism2024]

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A while ago, there was a thread asking specifically if dirty bombs should be covered by the Second Amendment. The more general gist of the discussion was what weapons are covered, and perhaps why they should be included. The thread disappeared for a reason yet to be announced by moderators, so I figured I would attempt another one.

Some believe that handguns are not included. Others believe that weapons of mass destruction should be legal for possession (and perhaps carry). Most believe that the limit lies somewhere in between. Keeping in mind that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to arm the populace to keep a check on government, that fact seems to add some credibility to the less-restriction argument. Yet the fact that the most advanced weapon our Founding Fathers had was a musket seems to support an idea that they couldn't have imagined the destruction of the weapons we have today. Also thrown into the debate is the issue that in the early 20th century, weapons were banned from civilian ownership (i.e. the sawed-off shotgun) because they served no military purpose, yet in the late 20th century to the present, weapons are being banned for not serving any sporting purpose (i.e. through the "assault weapon" bans). Naturally, public safety versus freedom is a valuble part of this debate.

For reference, the Second Amendment:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." (As passed by the House and Senate)
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." (As distributed to the states and then ratified by them)

So to again state the question: For how destructive of a weapon does the Second Amendment allow?

 

[ilbob]

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imperialism2024 wrote:

Yet the fact that the most advanced weapon our Founding Fathers had was a musket seems to support an idea that they couldn't have imagined the destruction of the weapons we have today.

So to again state the question: For how destructive of a weapon does the Second Amendment allow?

They had far more powerful weapons than muskets. Rifles were common, and so were cannon and mortars. There were even prmitive rockets ("and the rockets red glare...").

I am not sure if destructive capability is the limiting factor in the 2A. Would the antis even accept the OC of BP revolvers? Or flintlock pistols?

 

[deepdiver]

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I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

 

[openryan]

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The line is hard to draw, to say that you include this, but not that, very tricky.

However I think firearms are about the limit, now where do you draw the line with firearms, I don't know, I would really have to think about it.

Assault rifles, even full auto weapons should be included. As the weapons have definitely gotten better, crime and threats to our safety have also grown.

By no means do I think it was meant to include dirty bombs, weapons of mass destruction or otherwise. I am sorry, but carrying a briefcase bomb is entirely unecessary.

I think it was meant for people to be able to defend themselves, and their property, not to go take an offensive against people you don't like.

 

[Comp-tech]

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deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

 

[openryan]

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Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

Can anyone tell me when they could possibly need an RPG?

I don't think they are covered. I do think it covers just about every gun, of course with no restriction on number of weapons owned.

 

[Comp-tech]

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openryan wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

Can anyone tell me when they could possibly need an RPG?

I don't think they are covered. I do think it covers just about every gun, of course with no restriction on number of weapons owned.

For the same reason one might need a machine gun.......or a .50 cal....or "every other gun" as you put it.
IF it ever came to the need for a "militia", keep in mind that "they" would have WAY more than we would...more MGs...more ARMOR, more aircraft, more ?.....is the need THAT hard to comprehend?

 

[openryan]

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Comp-tech wrote:

openryan wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

Can anyone tell me when they could possibly need an RPG?

I don't think they are covered. I do think it covers just about every gun, of course with no restriction on number of weapons owned.

For the same reason one might need a machine gun.......or a .50 cal....or "every other gun" as you put it.
IF it ever came to the need for a "militia", keep in mind that "they" would have WAY more than we would...more MGs...more ARMOR, more aircraft, more ?.....is the need THAT hard to comprehend?

And if that "militia" is going to stand any chance, you can bet it is going to have to be quite, quite large in number, which is probably going to include a lot of government and military personnel. They would turn on their own.

But, I was wrong, I am changing my answer. The second ammendment now includes fighter jets, nukes, rpgs, laws, tanks, apc's, and anything else you want.

Honestly though, even if you had RPG's, and LAW's, and the military and police didn't turn on their employer like the common folk, it would still be hard to defend.

 

[Comp-tech]

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LOL....dayum!...I wasn't talking in terms of a revolution per se...I was actually thinking more along the lines of us being the militia helping out our military in case of invasion etc.....
I don't think that the 2nd would include tanks, APCs, nukes etc. but IMHO, it should include any and all "single person use" weapon that a militia could use....hell, I'd even be open to some "team" type weapons being included like .50 BMGs etc......why not?

 

[vermonter]

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"I am not sure if destructive capability is the limiting factor in the 2A. Would the antis even accept the OC of BP revolvers? Or flintlock pistols?"

The above statement from ilbob is soooo true! I remember going to a Revolutionary War Re-Enactment in Bennington, Vermont. There was a family there from Massachusetts (Massholes). Kids in $300 Northface Jackets, Dad with his dapper white collar dress pants and signature polo shirt. I remember 2 Re-Enactors walked by with shouldered muskets and "dad" literally shuddered with fear! His son asked "are those guns real"? Dad answered "yes I am afraid they are son, remember whatI told you... Guns are evil"! I remember getting red and had to walk away to keep from giving him my piece of mind and telling him to get the hell out of Vermont! Ask a REAL Vermonter who they dislike the most and th answer will ALWAYS by "flatlanders from NY, NJ and Mass"!

Theseare the kind of idiots we are breeding. People like him would just like to give up our sovereignty to the UN, and have Nelson Mandela run the US! This is why we need Ron Paul for President!

 

[Comp-tech]

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vermonter wrote:

"I am not sure if destructive capability is the limiting factor in the 2A. Would the antis even accept the OC of BP revolvers? Or flintlock pistols?"

The above statement from ilbob is soooo true! I remember going to a Revolutionary War Re-Enactment in Bennington, Vermont. There was a family there from Massachusetts (Massholes). Kids in $300 Northface Jackets, Dad with his dapper white collar dress pants and signature polo shirt. I remember 2 Re-Enactors walked by with shouldered muskets and "dad" literally shuddered with fear! His son asked "are those guns real"? Dad answered "yes I am afraid they are son, remember whatI told you... Guns are evil"! I remember getting red and had to walk away to keep from giving him my piece of mind and telling him to get the hell out of Vermont! Ask a REAL Vermonter who they dislike the most and th answer will ALWAYS by "flatlanders from NY, NJ and Mass"!

Theseare the kind of idiots we are breeding. People like him would just like to give up our sovereignty to the UN, and have Nelson Mandela run the US! This is why we need Ron Paul for President!

+1 and then some......

LOL....Massholes.......ROFLMAO!!!

 

[Doug Huffman]

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I see no mention of 'need' in the Second Amendment but only of "shall not be infringed."

Only a willing tyrant will debate reasonableness and safety.

Safety is a good tool for tyrants; no one can be against safety.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$

 

[expvideo]

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openryan wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

Can anyone tell me when they could possibly need an RPG?

I don't think they are covered. I do think it covers just about every gun, of course with no restriction on number of weapons owned.

For destroying the vehicles of an oppressive government. The 2nd amendment was written as a safeguard so that the regular military could not be more powerful than the civilian militia. We should absolutely be allowed to have grenades and RPGs, because they are individually operated weapons that would be required to conduct any military operation. I agree entirely with Comp-tech.

Besides, when did gun rights become about "need"? Do I "need" my AK47 or my standard capacity magazines? Why do you get to decide what I need, anyway?

If I have to fight my own government (which is why the 2nd amendment was written), I should be able to access the same kind of small arms that the soldiers of that government are able to access. That means grenades and RPGs.

I don't believe that dirty bombs or WMDs are covered, because I support that the second amendment is an individual right, not a collective right, and those aren't meant to be individually operated weapons.

 

[deepdiver]

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Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

I need to clarify as I left my explosives comment way too general. I wasn't thinking about black powder or even run of the mill hand grenades. I'm thinking high explosives, plastique, etc. Military grade stuff. Stuff that requires some really special knowlege to use, as opposed to the makings for a black powder pipe bomb we set off on the back 40 jacking around.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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I don't have any special knowlege! In high school I was taught/learned to make azides, picrates, NI3, ... are these 'unreasonable'?

Just because you don't know something doesn't make the knowlege special. This common sensical ignorance is the result of goverment education

Sorry. Only eager tyrants will debate 'reasonableness' in the face of the Second Amendment that "shall not be infringed."

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

deepdiver wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I think it clear from contemporary writings that the 2nd Amendment was meant to apply to single person use small arms. Crew served weapons such as artillary were not intended. I also don't think that explosives were intended as at their time, explosives were essentially crew served as it required lots of people carrying lots of black powder to get a decent boom.

While I agree with your sentiment, I must disagree with your assessment of explosives in that grenades were invented LONG before the revolution........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenades

IMHO, we should all be able to keep a battle rifle of our choosing, (with a grenade launching capability of course) an SMG, a shotgun, a pistol....and ammo "aplenty" for all weapons owned.
But what about an RPG or two?.....maybe a couple of LAW rockets?.....both are "single person use"
I say yes, the 2nd does cover such items...but we all know it ain't likely to happen

I need to clarify as I left my explosives comment way too general. I wasn't thinking about black powder or even run of the mill hand grenades. I'm thinking high explosives, plastique, etc. Military grade stuff. Stuff that requires some really special knowlege to use, as opposed to the makings for a black powder pipe bomb we set off on the back 40 jacking around.

Doesn't that lend itself, though, to being used by the "well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State"?

 

[deepdiver]

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This is an interesting topic. Does a B-52 count as arms under the 2A or is it something else? Is an ICBM "arms" in the common sense of the word. Again, it is clear from contemporary writings that the intent was to secure the natural right of the citizens to be armed with individual use/deployed contemporary weapons.

While one person can climb into a fully armed F-15 carrying a nuclear payload and fly that aircraft by themselves to a certain target and launch the nuclear weapon on target, and then destroy numerous other targets outside of the blast radius with the remaining conventional weapons, and while it is only one guy with a big ass fighter aircraft strapped to his back, I just don't think that is the intent or the spirit of the 2nd Amendment. Are we going to argue that any fighter/bomber aircraft that can be operated by a sole pilot is not a crew-served/deployed asset and therefore falls under the 2nd Amendment? So a B-52 can be restricted but we each have a constitutional right to own and operate a fully armed F-16 if we can afford it?

If not, where is that line drawn. Certain high yield explosives? Nuclear devices? RPGs?

Generally I am not worried about fellow law-abiding American citizens owning/possessing such weapons. The problem is that people, even law-abiding people, are generally stupid. I keep thinking about that guy, I think it was in PA, who had his BAR stolen from his apartment. He was keeping it locked up in a cabinet that I doubt was a tough as what I keep my tools in. So now we have a fully automatic .30 cal machine gun in the hands of criminals because that dumbass stuck it in a cabinet my mother could open with a pry bar and then went out and bragged about owning it. This tool spent $20k (IIRC) on the rifle but not $1k on a decent safe. That is what worries me. I'm not worried about Imperialism, Tarzan or Openryan for example, having an RPG in their gun safe. (Actually I would love to see the video of it being deployed for self-defense - "Freeze or I'll blow up half my house!" Laff), I'm worried about some dill-hole having it in their weakly locked garage next to bulk container of motor oil.

 

[Thundar]

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The constitution does place limits on both individuals and states. We know that there was never an intent to have unlimited firepower. The greatest firepoweraround when the Constitutionwas written was the ship of the line. Naval power was limited to the Federal Government, for both the Navy and the authority to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal.

 

[openryan]

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deepdiver wrote:

This is an interesting topic. Does a B-52 count as arms under the 2A or is it something else? Is an ICBM "arms" in the common sense of the word. Again, it is clear from contemporary writings that the intent was to secure the natural right of the citizens to be armed with individual use/deployed contemporary weapons.

While one person can climb into a fully armed F-15 carrying a nuclear payload and fly that aircraft by themselves to a certain target and launch the nuclear weapon on target, and then destroy numerous other targets outside of the blast radius with the remaining conventional weapons, and while it is only one guy with a big ass fighter aircraft strapped to his back, I just don't think that is the intent or the spirit of the 2nd Amendment. Are we going to argue that any fighter/bomber aircraft that can be operated by a sole pilot is not a crew-served/deployed asset and therefore falls under the 2nd Amendment? So a B-52 can be restricted but we each have a constitutional right to own and operate a fully armed F-16 if we can afford it?

If not, where is that line drawn. Certain high yield explosives? Nuclear devices? RPGs?

Generally I am not worried about fellow law-abiding American citizens owning/possessing such weapons. The problem is that people, even law-abiding people, are generally stupid. I keep thinking about that guy, I think it was in PA, who had his BAR stolen from his apartment. He was keeping it locked up in a cabinet that I doubt was a tough as what I keep my tools in. So now we have a fully automatic .30 cal machine gun in the hands of criminals because that dumbass stuck it in a cabinet my mother could open with a pry bar and then went out and bragged about owning it. This tool spent $20k (IIRC) on the rifle but not $1k on a decent safe. That is what worries me. I'm not worried about Imperialism, Tarzan or Openryan for example, having an RPG in their gun safe. (Actually I would love to see the video of it being deployed for self-defense - "Freeze or I'll blow up half my house!" Laff), I'm worried about some dill-hole having it in their weakly locked garage next to bulk container of motor oil.

You have a lot more faith in people than I do.

 

[Guest]

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This might interest.. around page 112. The whole thing is somewhat interesting, though long.

http://www.arkansasmilitia.com/thesilverbullet/thesilverbullet.pdf

Personally I think full auto's are included in the 2ndA. Tax and registration is an infringement.

Beyond that I'll have to think about it..