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How can a state run university ban open carry?

solus

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So you are saying don't rock the boat????

Color, i'm saying they hold his complete adult future in their control and he agreed to it and gave them that complete control when he enrolled. they can bring this student to their knees instantly by denying his academic credentials and pursuit of future academic goals.

and yes there is arbitration available using in house overseers...all the while the student is on the outside fighting the allegations or if fighting while still enrolled...which activity do you think will take precedence...his academics for say mid/finals or preparing for the university arbitration board.

your option would be Color? rock or don't rock the boat as you personally are nearing the receipt of your undergrad diploma or right after just entering your grad program?

?

ipse
 

utbagpiper

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So you are saying don't rock the boat????

Much as I dislike his mode of communication, solus does give sound advice in this regard. And I apologize if I didn't make that clear as well.

Taking on the school personally through deliberate violation of their policies has some significant risk for any student or employee.

Making your case to the legislature, even very publicly, is perfectly safe. It would be very damaging to the University's reputation with the legislature (the source of their funding) to be seen as making any effort to retaliate against a student who exercised his right to speak to his legislators. Of course, if they can find some legitimate reason to make life hard, unconnected to your political activism, I wouldn't put that past them. So you have to be squeaky clean.

So long as you are well behaved, I would not be concerned about CCing so long as you have a valid permit. Nor do I think there is any need to be secretive about your lawful, concealed possession of a gun. I personally know of several students and employees at UoU and UVU who have made no secret of their political views or lawful possession, and never had a problem. If the usual sheeple are not noticing your gun and calling in MWAG reports, you are probably well enough concealed to avoid problems with the university.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Color, i'm saying they hold his complete adult future in their control and he agreed to it and gave them that complete control when he enrolled. they can bring this student to their knees instantly by denying his academic credentials and pursuit of future academic goals.

and yes there is arbitration available using in house overseers...all the while the student is on the outside fighting the allegations or if fighting while still enrolled...which activity do you think will take precedence...his academics for say mid/finals or preparing for the university arbitration board.

In Utah the situation is not nearly that dire. Our legislature doesn't take kindly to State Preemption being ignored, nor to anyone being subjected to retribution for being involved in politics including voicing concerns to the legislature. Our Bureau of Criminal Identification once went a full year without any legal power to enforce ANY of their rules or regulations because they got a little sideways with the legislature. When they got their rules back, it was without their prior rule requiring permit holders to disclose their permits and the presence of a gun to police. Now all they can do recommend such disclosure during police interactions.

The legislature holds the purse strings, they have the power to invalidate executive level rules, the last time a university pushed hard to ban guns and a judge agreed with the school, the legislature took the court's ruling to heart and passed a stronger State preemption law before the case was heard by the appeals court.

One should not blindly violate school policy on a personal belief that the policy violates State Preemption. But there is zero evidence that being actively involved in getting the policy changed is going to cause any major problems. Woe be to the school or school official who caused a problem for a student or employee over such political involvement and let that come to light in Utah.

Of course, since you're not in Utah, don't understand our laws, culture, or values (nobody here refers to violent carjackers who get themselves killed as "victims"), this is probably all news to you.

I won't presume to know who holds which cards in your State, mate. Show the same common sense and courtesy when it comes to Utah.

Charles
 

BB62

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I am currently attending a state run university called Utah Valley University in Utah. The university has this posted on their police department main page:

"Utah Valley University complies with state law with regard to weapons on campus. Utah state law clearly states that a person may not possess a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shot gun on school premises (Utah Code 76-10-505.5) except under certain conditions. One of these exceptions indicates that this criminal statute is not applicable if the person is authorized to possess a concealed firearm as provided by the Concealed Weapon Law. UVU abides by this law and accordingly allows concealed firearm permit holders to possess their concealed firearm on campus. There is nothing specifically set forth in the Utah statutes that allows a concealed firearm permit holder to carry that firearm openly on a college campus. State statute defines a concealed dangerous weapon as being covered, hidden, or secured in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence (Utah Code 76-10-501). As an institution, UVU respects the right of its students and others to legally carry a concealed firearm under those parameters, as outlined by state law."

How can Utah Valley University restrict open carry based on the fact that an action not decided by legislative law is an action you have no right to perform?

Plus in Utah code 53-5a-102 it reads:

"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

So how does Utah Valley University justify its open carry ban?
WHAT BAN are you talking about? I don't see anything about a ban in what you quoted. :banghead:

Laws tend to say what ISN'T legal, not what IS legal.

What law allows you to wear pink pants and a lime green shirt on UVU property?

Maybe you can cite the law or university code of conduct that you would be violating if you open carried on campus?
 

Ljec1991

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WHAT BAN are you talking about? I don't see anything about a ban in what you quoted. :banghead:

Laws tend to say what ISN'T legal, not what IS legal.

What law allows you to wear pink pants and a lime green shirt on UVU property?

Maybe you can cite the law or university code of conduct that you would be violating if you open carried on campus?

A representative of the University took me to their policy pages https://www.uvu.edu/policies/officialpolicy/uploads/public/500/541_550/541.student_rights_and_responsibilities_code.20061 116.pdf where it states on page 4:

5.3.1
A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriate manner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:

5)Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage of
such on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

Which contradicts Utah code 53-5a-102:

"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."
 

solus

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Understandable Solus. I know that this situation must be taken carefully. I do follow the policies, because I believe in social order. However, this does not mean that I need to agree with said policies, especially when they are violating law. I just wish to seek a good way to stand up for my rights.

well said, tho your situation is not like being disgruntled against your employer when you are in an at will employment status and you are covered by employment law, state and federal.

you agreed to their policies (legal or not) ~ period! that point alone will be used against you! personally, i would be more worried about another student notifying some university whatever and making a scene and causing a ruckus based on their biased emotionalism against firearms. now you are engaged in an emotional he said, he said hyperbole arguments being slung around and the university has to pick sides...

my advice stands...you willing to forgo receiving your academic credentials or your future academic educational goals as well as impact your employment opportunities since employers now ask for transcripts directly from educational institutes as a condition for employment.

you asked and received several answers ~ your almost an adult now...chose! know this tho, as an adult, you must accept responsibility for and live your life based on your choice.

I am going to caveat something...you didn't mention you were a part of an activist group or if one is on campus ~ if not start one!!

one person it is easy for the university to sweep them under the carpet...a gaggle of students it is tougher to make go away. how bout doing it from a perspective of a shooting sports club...rifle, pistol, shotgun, archery work towards scholastic pursuits??

ipse
 

BB62

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A representative of the University took me to their policy pages https://www.uvu.edu/policies/offici...ights_and_responsibilities_code.20061 116.pdf where it states on page 4:

5.3.1
A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriate manner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:

5)Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage of
such on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

Which contradicts Utah code 53-5a-102:

"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."
I see you changed your original post (without explanation) to include what I've quoted above from the #25 post on this thread. I see you also changed various other posts, also without explanation, to apparently cover up the fact that the alleged BAN you referred to was nowhere to be found in your posts.

Despite that fact, #1 - the link in post #25 generates a 404 error, and #2 - the outdated document referenced there is just that: outdated. See about getting it changed, as I'm sure that even you recognize that the statement you quoted from the police department's main page contradicts it.

In the meanwhile, if you have a revision to make to your original or subsequent statement(s) that drastically alters them, just make a new post.


Here is a working link to the Student Rights & Responsibilities Code: https://www.uvu.edu/policies/offici...rights_and_responsibilities_code.20061116.pdf

On the bottom of page 4 you'll find: "5) Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage ofsuch on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police."

It should be noted that this revision is from January, 2014. Whether the laws have changed since then or updating the document has simply been overlooked, my point still stands about the PD's main page.
 
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color of law

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Color, i'm saying they hold his complete adult future in their control and he agreed to it and gave them that complete control when he enrolled. they can bring this student to their knees instantly by denying his academic credentials and pursuit of future academic goals.

and yes there is arbitration available using in house overseers...all the while the student is on the outside fighting the allegations or if fighting while still enrolled...which activity do you think will take precedence...his academics for say mid/finals or preparing for the university arbitration board.

your option would be Color? rock or don't rock the boat as you personally are nearing the receipt of your undergrad diploma or right after just entering your grad program?

?

ipse
Yes rock the boat. That is all I've ever known to do in my life. My mom said I was raising hell coming out of the womb. When I went to college they understood they worked for me. I was not their slave. And I'm still rocking the boat.
 

solus

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I see you changed your original post (without explanation) to include what I've quoted above from the #25 post on this thread. I see you also changed various other posts, also without explanation, to apparently cover up the fact that the alleged BAN you referred to was nowhere to be found in your posts.

Despite that fact, #1 - the link in post #25 generates a 404 error, and #2 - the outdated document referenced there is just that: outdated. See about getting it changed, as I'm sure that even you recognize that the statement you quoted from the police department's main page contradicts it.

In the meanwhile, if you have a revision to make to your original or subsequent statement(s) that drastically alters them, just make a new post.


based on the above comment Ljec1991, i am truly disappointed to say the least!

as a young adult, completing your academic journey or beginning the next academic plateau, your academic integrity, honesty, and professionalism exhibited on this forum shows this individual you have serious lack of maturity. apparently while at university, you have failed to learn one of adulthood's greatest lessons ~ ethics and integrity. these traits would have served you through life's activities dealing with your peers.

forgive me if i reassess ~ you have no worry about running afoul of the university for your firearm for the reasons i outlined in the policy and procedures manual but rather i would be extremely concerned you do not get into trouble from the same manual but this section:

5.5.1 The University expects all students to maintain integrity and high standards of individualhonesty in academic work, to obey the law, and to show respect for others.

my previous comment about your choices being yours and to hold yourself responsible...now you have a life lesson to work through.

good luck w/your future.

ipse

added ps: BB62: link to school's P & P, dstd 14, if still interested https://www.uvu.edu/policies/offici...rights_and_responsibilities_code.20061116.pdf
 
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solus

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Yes rock the boat. That is all I've ever known to do in my life. My mom said I was raising hell coming out of the womb. When I went to college they understood they worked for me. I was not their slave. And I'm still rocking the boat.

you must have gone to yellow springs...:eek:

academically, they worked with you for curriculum to obtain your credentials and you worked with them to assure their accreditation was maintained. happens all the time ~ if those who are working with you, chair, advisor, dean, etc., are amenable ~ you fall out of favor there is no iota of consensus.

as for your birthing experience all i heard when i read that statement was two banjos playing deliverance.

ipse
 

Ljec1991

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I am sorry that I didn't explain myself well. I didnt know that I needed to explain my changes. I was just trying to clarify a point in the beginning. I knew the uvu policy and I didn't put on the first post till I was able to find it in the policy paperwork. Thanks for the advice. Again, I am
sorry for making the mistake.
 

BB62

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I am sorry that I didn't explain myself well. I didnt know that I needed to explain my changes. I was just trying to clarify a point in the beginning. I knew the uvu policy and I didn't put on the first post till I was able to find it in the policy paperwork. Thanks for the advice. Again, I am
sorry for making the mistake.
Fine.

The bottom line(s) are that 1) there is no ban, and 2) the only place it appears there is one is in the outdated .pdf file.

The rest of the stuff you cited is the university attempting to mislead students into thinking that OC is banned, and misinformed (purposely or not) staff.

Edited to add: see if you can get the .pdf file updated and the misleading wording changed. If you can't get the misleading wording changed, we can help direct you to whom you need to communicate with and what to say.
 
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Ljec1991

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Let me see if I can find an up to date policy some where. Also, knowing that the police department is against open carry I feel that there statement is portraying that while your cc permit does let you carry conceal it doesn't let you carry open, which they say the law doesn't protect.
 

BB62

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Let me see if I can find an up to date policy some where. Also, knowing that the police department is against open carry I feel that there statement is portraying that while your cc permit does let you carry conceal it doesn't let you carry open, which they say the law doesn't protect.
)my bold)

NO, NO, NO. <sigh> You're misreading again. Where do they say the law doesn't "protect" OC??? Does an action have to be "protected" to be legal? THEY SAY (essentially): "The law doesn't specifically make OC legal". My answer: SO WHAT???"

Your re-writing of what is said is not accurate. It's weasel worded for a reason. Go back a few posts and read what I said: "Laws tend to say what ISN'T legal, not what IS legal. What law allows you to wear pink pants and a lime green shirt on UVU property?"

Just because a law doesn't exist which countenances an action/inaction doesn't mean it's illegal.

<second sigh>

I've got other things to do now - like with the St. Louis Zoo. Until I get back I'm sure others will help you out.
 

color of law

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you must have gone to yellow springs...:eek:

academically, they worked with you for curriculum to obtain your credentials and you worked with them to assure their accreditation was maintained. happens all the time ~ if those who are working with you, chair, advisor, dean, etc., are amenable ~ you fall out of favor there is no iota of consensus.

as for your birthing experience all i heard when i read that statement was two banjos playing deliverance.

ipse
A big Wrong. I would not waste my time at any college getting a liberal/progressive diploma. Wallpaper is cheaper at the home improvement store. Of the two diplomas I have, I have never been asked to show them to anyone. No one has ever wanted to see my school transcripts. I doubt that they even exist. I was in school when we still used slide rules. My first scientific calculator cost over $150. That was one weeks take-home pay.

I have been a nonconformist all my life and I'm not about to change now.

It comes across to me that you believe a nonconformist, a person that rocks the boat, cannot be a success in life. That the academic community controls your destiny. All furthest from the truth. But they will if you let them.
 

solus

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A big Wrong. I would not waste my time at any college getting a liberal/progressive diploma. Wallpaper is cheaper at the home improvement store. Of the two diplomas I have, I have never been asked to show them to anyone. No one has ever wanted to see my school transcripts. I doubt that they even exist. I was in school when we still used slide rules. My first scientific calculator cost over $150. That was one weeks take-home pay.

I have been a nonconformist all my life and I'm not about to change now.

It comes across to me that you believe a nonconformist, a person that rocks the boat, cannot be a success in life. That the academic community controls your destiny. All furthest from the truth. But they will if you let them.

with reverse polish notation, i'm sure...

Please do not misconstrue and regurgitate what you believe i stated...i never stated those that rock the boat do not succeed but in the case of this student the academic community DOES control their destiny during this snap shot of time. look around, we have college sport stars getting thrown off the their teams, presumed guilty w/o due processes, from situations that when you attended higher education institutions would have been overlooked or at best a smack on the hand.

now to generalize...while a student you are at the whim of academia tyrants ~ from the professor to the administration as students who rock the boat have discerned over the ages and it matters not if it be in the classroom or in the community. Example, a local religious college doesn't allow alcohol in the dorms or on their property. Not a problem, but small town in rural religious eastern NC...the local police provide reports, sometimes with minutes of the incident, of college students who are confronted by them to the college administration. Unfair, unjust, illegal, you say...maybe but the students sign enrollment documents stating they will not bring disgrace to the college!! the student is called in soonest and administrative sanctions are discussed with the student.

be a student who disrupts class...see what control as well as what ramifications are inflected if control is not restored. the professor wields dictatorial authority in their domain including failing someone...go to the chair or dean saying you were unfairly treated by said professor...please let me know how that works out for you for your academic career. challenge a professor's knowledge in front of the entire class...that is quite a fun exercise to watch.

finally, some remember, er read about, a time when the 'calculator' was not allowed in the academic classroom by the brick and mortar learned academicians as it was deemed unreliable.

ipse
 

Ljec1991

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I spoke with a representative of the UVU police department and was told that the current policy is posted on their main page. I asked him whether or not open carry with a conceal permit is permitted and he said yes, but you will be sited with disorderly conduct if the department receive calls of concern.
Doesn't that still conflict with Utah's disorderly conduct law?
 

BB62

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I spoke with a representative of the UVU police department and was told that the current policy is posted on their main page. I asked him whether or not open carry with a conceal permit is permitted and he said yes, but you will be sited with disorderly conduct if the department receive calls of concern.
Doesn't that still conflict with Utah's disorderly conduct law?
Do you read your own posts???

Look at post #4 on this thread, where you posted, complete with bold text, the following:

"76-9-102. Disorderly conduct...

(3) The mere carrying or possession of a holstered or encased firearm, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior or circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe the holstered or encased firearm was carried or possessed with criminal intent, does not constitute a violation of this section. " (my underline and color)


You've got your answer (multiple times on multiple subjects) so the question is "What are you going to do about it??"
 
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