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House Approves Concealed Firearm Permit Bill!!!! YES!!!

Chaingun81

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
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581
Location
Centreville, Virginia, USA
I agree with those who warn about dangers of this law. For how much I'd love to be able to carry in all 50 states, this is really not a right vehicle to do it. I haven't had a chance to read the law, but from the bits and pieces that I saw, it appears that is has already been amended to the point of being borderline dangerous. I can imagine that it will only get worse in the Senate.

Passing a federal law to fight states laws, even bad ones, is never a good thing. I can this thing going really bad really fast. It won't be long before someone will amend it with uniform federal CHP/CWP requirments which will gradually become more and more stringent to the point when it essentially becomes a nationwide restrictive "may issue" and effectively "no issue".

There are a couple of ways where federal involvement can be benefitial and proper though. I'd love to see a SCOTUS ruling declaring Nationwide Constitutional Carry on the basis of 2nd Amendment. Or a Federal law that simply makes it illegal for any locality to pass any laws that conflict with the US Constitution. Either way, this elaborate overlegislated proposal doesn't seem like a good place to start...
 

ixtow

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Nov 25, 2006
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5,038
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Suwannee County, FL
Or a Federal law that simply makes it illegal for any locality to pass any laws that conflict with the US Constitution.

We already have this. It IS the Constitution. That's what it's for...

But who uses that old thing anymore? It's just a silly old piece of paper. And if we refuse to fight for it, it will burn. The notion of taking up arms against the State is EXACTLY what it is for, yet anyone who suggests it is poopooed as a crazy... Until that backwards attitude changes, we're screwed.
 
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Brimstone Baritone

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Mar 26, 2010
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786
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Leeds, Alabama, USA
I'd love to be able to carry in all 50 states. This law doesn't give us that, so that is a poor argument in its favor. The best it gives us is the ability to carry in states like CA, NJ, NY that have licensing provisions but the citizens of the state can't seem to get approved for licenses. How does that affirm the privileges and immunities of those citizens? How does an Alabamian carrying where a Californian can't make the Californian more equal?

Re: Mr. Kopel's testimony:

If he agrees that the commerce clause is being abused, why does he support the further abuse thereof? If he feels that the law furthers the privileges and immunities of the citizens of various states, why not use that authority instead of the questionable commerce clause? How does extending the government granted privilege of carrying concealed protect the "right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than an unfriendly alien when temporarily present in the second State"? Specifically how does it do so in states where carry of any type is disallowed or frowned upon? I'm still an 'unfriendly alien' if I travel to Illinois with my otherwise lawful sidearm, right?

And I loved his straw man. Imagine! Passing HR 822 would be so much easier than deploying thousands of specially tasked federal law enforcement agents to monitor and protect interstate commerce. Wow! You know what would be even easier? "No state shall pass or enforce any law, policy, or rule, which shall have the effect of limiting or denying the citizen's right to bear arms for defense." But even with HR 822, resources will have to be diverted to enforce this new law for it to have any teeth. Maybe not thousands of dedicated federal agents, but still resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

He goes on to say "The denial of constitutional rights is in itself a tremendous harm. There is no more important purpose for congressional action than the protection of the national rights of citizenship guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America." He's absolutely right! But how does that apply to this bill? This legislation will give Federal blessing to the patchwork of infringements that now exist across the several states. Furthermore it opens up the interstate traveler to increased liability. One may not have been allowed to carry to defend oneself the current way, but it is much easier to remember a list of states you are not allowed to carry in than it is to remember all of the various differences between one states weapons laws and the next. How can such a law be said to protect the rights of an interstate traveler?

He cites, "Legislation which deters or remedies constitutional violations can fall within the sweep of Congress’ enforcement power even if in the process it prohibits conduct which is not itself unconstitutional and intrudes into ‘legislative spheres of autonomy previously reserved to the States'." But he fails to explain how legitimizing a patchwork of weapons restrictions could possible remedy any constitutional violations. How dare Congress prohibit a state from infringing on the permission slip of another state, when they can't be bothered to step in a protect the second amendment rights of the citizens in those same states. I hope the liberal nutcases in California and New York band together and get this law thrown out for imposing carry in their states. There are better ways to protect the RKBA than this heavy handed power grab. We shouldn't celebrate this law as "better than what we have now". We should take the time to do it right. Haste makes Waste.

The biggest departure from sanity comes when he brings up the concept of Open Carry. He correctly points out that in almost every state one or the other is legal. He correctly points out that states like New Jersey are just as intolerant of one as the other. He correctly points out that more states require and issue licenses for concealed carry than for open carry. Somehow, though, he makes the leap that the best way to handle this is for Congress to step in and make every state honor the license for concealed carry, and not honor unlicensed open carry. It hearkens back to the earlier 'commerce' argument. Supposedly Congress can force the other states to honor a state specific permission slip, but can't force them to honor the second amendment, which has already been ruled to apply to the states. Makes perfect sense, right?

I couldn't read past the part where he points out how stupid the interstate commerce abuse is, before going into detail about how it makes this proposed legislation valid. I can only imagine the amount of rationalization he had to to do resolve that little bit of cognitive dissonance.





tl;dr Kopel is a sell-out and a tool, who probably means well but is making some good arguments for the wrong bill.
 
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Shovelhead

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Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
315
Location
NO VA, ,
How would that work exactly?

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

What the Federal Government giveth with the stroke of a pen, it can take away with another.

Concealed permits should be like driver's permits, good ANYWHERE in the CONUS (including DC and Illinois) without needing to pass a law.
 

Brion

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
160
Location
Goldsboro, NC
This is a dangerous bill. especially for open carry. If you take a look at Texas's CC law, it is written in a way that OC illegal. If this bill ended up getting written, or interpreted the same way, it would end up turning into a federal ban on OC.

Watch out!
 

SouthernBoy

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Joined
May 12, 2007
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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
The things we tend to worry about most is what might happen in the future with a different congress coupled with tragic national events.

Let's suppose that this bill makes it all the way through both houses and the president signs it into law. Then seven years later, the democrats regain both houses and a few months pass by until something like 9/11 takes place... only more personal. Schools, churches, shopping centers, parks, even housing developments are attacked on a grand scale with large numbers of people injured and killed. Now congress rushes into write new bills and get them signed to "prevent such tragedies from being repeated". One of those bills is an amendment to this bill and it puts tough restrictions on obtaining and carrying firearms and adopts them to the lowest common denominator state. Restrictions such as requirements for registration of any firearm that is carried, limits on magazine capacity (remember lowest common denominator), licensing of all owned firearms, periodic inspections by local police of storage in homes (remember, this has now become a privilege which is what a carry permit is anyway), and other intrusions upon our rights.

Now we have a real problem on our hands because at this point we are not that far from congress just passing a bill that outlaws private ownership of classes of firearms (this already exists in some places - semi-auto "ugly" rifles). Why not limit ownership to revolvers, bolt action rifles, and over and under/side by shotguns?

It is easy to see how this could all take place with the right triggers tripped.
 

Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
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America
What the Federal Government giveth with the stroke of a pen, it can take away with another.

Concealed permits should be like driver's permits, good ANYWHERE in the CONUS (including DC and Illinois) without needing to pass a law.

So you like needing to ask permission to exercise a right? This bill is only a win for subjects who like asking permission. It equates a permission slip with a right. This is dangerous.
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
The things we tend to worry about most is what might happen in the future with a different congress coupled with tragic national events.

Let's suppose that this bill makes it all the way through both houses and the president signs it into law. Then seven years later, the democrats regain both houses and a few months pass by until something like 9/11 takes place... only more personal. Schools, churches, shopping centers, parks, even housing developments are attacked on a grand scale with large numbers of people injured and killed. Now congress rushes into write new bills and get them signed to "prevent such tragedies from being repeated". One of those bills is an amendment to this bill and it puts tough restrictions on obtaining and carrying firearms and adopts them to the lowest common denominator state. Restrictions such as requirements for registration of any firearm that is carried, limits on magazine capacity (remember lowest common denominator), licensing of all owned firearms, periodic inspections by local police of storage in homes (remember, this has now become a privilege which is what a carry permit is anyway), and other intrusions upon our rights.

Now we have a real problem on our hands because at this point we are not that far from congress just passing a bill that outlaws private ownership of classes of firearms (this already exists in some places - semi-auto "ugly" rifles). Why not limit ownership to revolvers, bolt action rifles, and over and under/side by shotguns?

It is easy to see how this could all take place with the right triggers tripped.

Couldn't a democrat congress/senate/president do all of this anyway even if this bill never happened?
 

kcgunfan

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Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
KC
This is a dangerous bill. especially for open carry. If you take a look at Texas's CC law, it is written in a way that OC illegal. If this bill ended up getting written, or interpreted the same way, it would end up turning into a federal ban on OC.

Watch out!

This bill does not make anything legal or illegal it merely says that state X must honor a concealed carry permit from a resident in state Y that has a resident permit from state Y. It says nothing about who can or cannot carry any type of weapon in any type of fashion. How do you think the courts would misinterpret it?
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Couldn't a democrat congress/senate/president do all of this anyway even if this bill never happened?

Yes they could. And not only a democratic congress but I would bet some moderate republicans would be happy to drink this Kool Aid, too. All it takes is enough of the public to demand that government do something to save them and protect them and they'll gladly forgo rights that so many have died for since 1775.
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
This bill does not make anything legal or illegal it merely says that state X must honor a concealed carry permit from a resident in state Y that has a resident permit from state Y. It says nothing about who can or cannot carry any type of weapon in any type of fashion. How do you think the courts would misinterpret it?

In the simplest phraseology I can muster, I don't trust government. None of them. No officials, no agencies, no departments, and no congress, state legislature, or general assembly. I don't trust them to abide by the supreme law of the several states and of the national land to do as they promised in their oath of office. Prudence dictates one to think like this because when one ceases to do so, all manner of evil can sneak in and erupt upon We the People. I only trust the Founders and what they designed. Everything that has come since has tried its best to find ways to circumvent, either covertly or overtly, this grand design in the cause of "we know what's best", when all they have really managed to do is wreak havoc and further remove We the People from our God given and guaranteed rights.

So trust them if you will. I'd rather remain vigilant and hold them at more than arm's length, lest the stink finds its way to my clothes.
 

riverrat10k

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Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,472
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on a rock in the james river
In the simplest phraseology I can muster, I don't trust government. None of them. No officials, no agencies, no departments, and no congress, state legislature, or general assembly. I don't trust them to abide by the supreme law of the several states and of the national land to do as they promised in their oath of office. Prudence dictates one to think like this because when one ceases to do so, all manner of evil can sneak in and erupt upon We the People. I only trust the Founders and what they designed. Everything that has come since has tried its best to find ways to circumvent, either covertly or overtly, this grand design in the cause of "we know what's best", when all they have really managed to do is wreak havoc and further remove We the People from our God given and guaranteed rights.

So trust them if you will. I'd rather remain vigilant and hold them at more than arm's length, lest the stink finds its way to my clothes.


+1000
 

Brass Magnet

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Joined
Apr 23, 2009
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Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
Can you be a little more precise?

Look for the constitutional authority this was passed under.

This will only make the Wickard v. Fillburn and similar jurisprudence even harder to crack. This commerce clause B.S. is specifically why some states passed so called "firearms freedom acts", to fight this very interference with their powers.

This will embolden the Feds even more in believing they have ultimate power to regulate firearms. Right now it may seem cool, but as soon as anti's control all three branches we'll be in huge trouble.

This should have been passed under the 2A if at all, instead of the commerce clause.

It'll probably never make it past the Senate though. I say that's probably a good thing.
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
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1,613
Location
SW MO
Couldn't a democrat congress/senate/president do all of this anyway even if this bill never happened?

Yep, but it may be more difficult to without some aggrivating circumstances; i.e. another 9/11. However, if they make it a major issue, they could probably pass something; they did for Obamacare.

However, if the bill is already in place as law, it can be easier to pass amendments/corrections to it, possibly through attachments to other bills. The NRA has tried to establish they can police all these attempted changes and 'we' shouldn't be concerned. However, with a more liberal congress, I doubt they can be as successful.

The whole idea of passing this under the commerce clause is a fraud. The commerce clause is being used to justify fed control for many items. Is there a limit to this? yep....but where do they stop.
 

ALOC1911

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Oct 7, 2011
Messages
70
Location
Troy, AL
What the Federal Government giveth with the stroke of a pen, it can take away with another.

Concealed permits should be like driver's permits, good ANYWHERE in the CONUS (including DC and Illinois) without needing to pass a law.

Yes they should but obviously after all these years that isn't going to happen without a law like this. And so what if they fed gov "takes it away". That'll mean we'll be back to where we are right now which is all states not honoring each other's permits/licenses. It would not mean we'd be worse off than we are now. All the people that don't like this law are worrying themselves about something that has not even been mentioned yet. What should be done is take this law as is written and then if the gov tries to make something else out of it like who, when or how you can carry or what the requirements are to get a CC license/permit then start opposing it. At least take the good part of it in the meantime being it's the only way we'll ever get it. For those that don't like this law, how would you like it if you couldn't legally drive in all states because some states didn't honor yor DL?
 

Redbaron007

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Sep 10, 2011
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SW MO
[snip].... For those that don't like this law, how would you like it if you couldn't legally drive in all states because some states didn't honor yor DL?

DL is a bad analogy; the states agreed to this, not the feds. You're comparing apples to oranges.
 

John Canuck

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Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
275
Location
Upstate SC
So you like needing to ask permission to exercise a right? This bill is only a win for subjects who like asking permission. It equates a permission slip with a right. This is dangerous.

Agreed. Very dangerous. It's amazing how far folks will contort themselves to get their ends to justify the means.
 
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