• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

HB2386 New P4P: Concealed Weapons Permit

DrMark

Lone Star Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
1,559
Location
Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
Thanks peter nap & Tosta Dojen.

I'm not much of a hunter (or much of a visitor to Richmond). It's a shame (IMO) that a law with its origins in hunting can impact a gun driving through Richmond.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Thanks peter nap & Tosta Dojen.

I'm not much of a hunter (or much of a visitor to Richmond). It's a shame (IMO) that a law with its origins in hunting can impact a gun driving through Richmond.
Unfortunately, the law only "hints" that it is related to hunting, by requiring notification to the DGIF.

IANAL, but I suspect if the law were a little more explicit that it were meant to be a hunting regulation, AND if you were to get charged with such a violation in a jurisdiction that did not allow hunting, then you MIGHT be able to convince a judge that it shouldn't apply... but as it is now, I wouldn't even think about trying that.

TFred
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Unfortunately, the law only "hints" that it is related to hunting, by requiring notification to the DGIF.

IANAL, but I suspect if the law were a little more explicit that it were meant to be a hunting regulation, AND if you were to get charged with such a violation in a jurisdiction that did not allow hunting, then you MIGHT be able to convince a judge that it shouldn't apply... but as it is now, I wouldn't even think about trying that.

TFred

It's an annoyance TFred but since it's a minor thing and so rarely enforced, it gets pushed back on the agenda.
Right now, there are bigger fish to fry. Maybe next year.:uhoh:
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I have been thinking about this bill. It would be so much simpler if we had constitutional carry as well as pre-emption for all cities, counties, towns, agencies and departments.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
I have been thinking about this bill. It would be so much simpler if we had constitutional carry as well as pre-emption for all cities, counties, towns, agencies and departments.

I like the way you think but I think another election cycle is needed before the legislators will be able to understand your cleansing logic. :)

I am all for the CWP conversion. I have some knives that I would like to carry but are awkward to open carry. I would also like them to get rid of any definition of verbotten knives! Who cares if I carry a Bowie knife or one the exact same length? I wouldn't mind having an auto switch blade. Also whenever I go on school property I have to swap out the knife I carry to fit within the less than 3" category. Like a criminal is going to obey that law!!! (Whoops, silly me, I have to go get a smaller knife to kill these people!)
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I like the way you think but I think another election cycle is needed before the legislators will be able to understand your cleansing logic. :)

I am all for the CWP conversion. I have some knives that I would like to carry but are awkward to open carry. I would also like them to get rid of any definition of verbotten knives! Who cares if I carry a Bowie knife or one the exact same length? I wouldn't mind having an auto switch blade. Also whenever I go on school property I have to swap out the knife I carry to fit within the less than 3" category. Like a criminal is going to obey that law!!! (Whoops, silly me, I have to go get a smaller knife to kill these people!)

But if you were a knife carrier (and not a firearms carrier) you would still have to have a certificate from the Concealed Carry Instructiion Industry (C2I2) teaching you about pistols in order to conceal a knife in Virginia. That is a big win for C2I2 and P4P!
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
But if you were a knife carrier (and not a firearms carrier) you would still have to have a certificate from the Concealed Carry Instructiion Industry (C2I2) teaching you about pistols in order to conceal a knife in Virginia. That is a big win for C2I2 and P4P!

Well at least we would be teaching all the knife fans about how to carry guns! Maybe they would expand their self defense armory to include firearms. :)

First we get a CWP then we need preemption for knives too!
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Just out of curiosity, which law requires this for compliance with it?

§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.
The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
As used in this section:
"Stun weapon" means any device that emits a momentary or pulsed output, which is electrical, audible, optical or electromagnetic in nature and which is designed to temporarily incapacitate a person.
(1979, c. 467; 1988, c. 493; 1990, cc. 635, 744; 1991, c. 579; 1992, cc. 727, 735; 1995, c. 511; 1999, cc. 587, 829, 846; 2001, c. 403; 2003, cc. 619, 976; 2004, cc. 128, 461; 2005, cc. 830, 928; 2007, c. 519.)
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon ...

The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;...

For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
As used in this section:

Thanks for the cite Peter, you beat me to it.

So as I understand it, if you stay in your car you can have any knife you want on you or in the car. If you get out to attend a sports event or go into the school you have to leave it in the car if it is 3" or longer.

I bought a Cold Steel mini lawman for them there times. :)

Where I get a little murky is when you get into non-school approved knives off school property, what is considered concealed for knives. I have a clip and it sticks out of my pocket a tad bit so I am not trying to conceal it but it is mostly in my pocket. I have some jackets that would conceal a longer fixed blade but I think I would have to OC it on my belt to be legal. A CWP would clean up some of that.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Thanks for the cite Peter, you beat me to it.


Where I get a little murky is when you get into non-school approved knives off school property, what is considered concealed for knives. .

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i)) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor.

There you have the forbidden list.
Razor ballistic knife, machete and switchblade are self explanatory.

The problems start with Bowie and Dirk. I build historically correct knives and had a long argument with Leo 229 about what a Dirk is. The short description is a short sword that derived from the Balcock Dagger.

A bowie knife is harder. Bowies have been made in every configuration known to man. Generally, it has a Clip point although the first one did not. It was a slow taper.

The Virginia Museum asked me to look at The knife they took off of John Brown and classify it. I'm not sure why because the list of materials made when he was arrested called it a Bowie. It really wasn't. Just a belt knife with a clip point.

To be illegal as a Bowie, it really needs a guard that would both protect your hand and aid in thrusting. There are some other criteria...but in essence, a fighting knife.


The Supreme court has ruled that a Dive knife does not fall under the Bowie Configuration even if it has all the aspects of a Bowie...because it can be used for a variety of purposes including prying.


To get away from an endless discussion that the court rulings are all over the board,

Unless your folding knife has a guard designed as described above, you're OK. Blade length doesn't matter.

I usually carry three knives.
A buck Trapper, a large Buck lockback (The original) and a Stockman.
All legal!
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i)) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor.

There you have the forbidden list.
Razor ballistic knife, machete and switchblade are self explanatory.

The problems start with Bowie and Dirk. I build historically correct knives and had a long argument with Leo 229 about what a Dirk is. The short description is a short sword that derived from the Balcock Dagger.

A bowie knife is harder. Bowies have been made in every configuration known to man. Generally, it has a Clip point although the first one did not. It was a slow taper.

The Virginia Museum asked me to look at The knife they took off of John Brown and classify it. I'm not sure why because the list of materials made when he was arrested called it a Bowie. It really wasn't. Just a belt knife with a clip point.

To be illegal as a Bowie, it really needs a guard that would both protect your hand and aid in thrusting. There are some other criteria...but in essence, a fighting knife.


The Supreme court has ruled that a Dive knife does not fall under the Bowie Configuration even if it has all the aspects of a Bowie...because it can be used for a variety of purposes including prying.


To get away from an endless discussion that the court rulings are all over the board,

Unless your folding knife has a guard designed as described above, you're OK. Blade length doesn't matter.

I usually carry three knives.
A buck Trapper, a large Buck lockback (The original) and a Stockman.
All legal!

All of this goes to the tool being evil, bad and inherently dangerous, not the person's actions - therein is found the error. :banghead:
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
All of this goes to the tool being evil, bad and inherently dangerous, not the person's actions - therein is found the error. :banghead:

That's a very good point GS!

The Buck Lockblade I carry is a work knife, is legal and is also the same model Charles Manson used to murder his victims.

It wasn't the knife, it was the man behind it.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
That's a very good point GS!

The Buck Lockblade I carry is a work knife, is legal and is also the same model Charles Manson used to murder his victims.

It wasn't the knife, it was the man behind it.

+1

To me, everything looks like a bowie knife. I would like to conceal this knife but the "bowie" definition is vague enough to classify almost any fighting knife as one. :-(

http://www.coldsteel.com/oda-san-mai-iii.html
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
+1

To me, everything looks like a bowie knife. I would like to conceal this knife but the "bowie" definition is vague enough to classify almost any fighting knife as one. :-(

http://www.coldsteel.com/oda-san-mai-iii.html

This knife fits most of the criteria for a Bowie knife - enough that most would consider it such. Primary technical differences are the design of the clip point and it lacks a full swedge along the back edge and does not have the often requisite "S" shaped guard + it is a bit shorter than most Bowie knives.

All of that aside, the original Bowie knife was almost identical with the large chef's knife of today - simple, large and without highly designed/refined features.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
This knife fits most of the criteria for a Bowie knife - enough that most would consider it such. Primary technical differences are the design of the clip point and it lacks a full swedge along the back edge and does not have the often requisite "S" shaped guard + it is a bit shorter than most Bowie knives.

All of that aside, the original Bowie knife was almost identical with the large chef's knife of today - simple, large and without highly designed/refined features.

Yep, you'd have trouble getting out of that one.

All of that aside, the original Bowie knife was almost identical with the large chef's knife of today - simple, large and without highly designed/refined features
Grape, you never cease to amaze me. The comparison with Chef's knives is dead on.

During that time period most knives that were store bought, were imported french cutlery and were in size, shape and construction, kitchen knives. The Blacksmith made knives followed the same shape such as the Roach belly knives, they were just a little heavier because they were forged instead of rolled in a mill.

The original Bowie from my best guess because there are several claims, was closer in shape to a boning knife, with the taper starting just forward of the hilt.

The heavier blade with the Clip point and sharpened false edge were later knives designed by Rezin Bowie. He had quite a few made and sold them.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Peter, I think we both attended the same school - the Academy of Hard Knots....:lol:

Whether unraveling the mysteries of the Gordian knot or Gideon's paradox, both Jim Bowie and Alexander taught me that there were a quicker ways to solve perplexing problems - cutting to the chase: Why are any blades illegal?

If I could not carry a gun, I would most likely be seen OCing a gladius or at least a pūgiō - a pretty one too. What say you [strike]Brutus[/strike] Peter - a big Knives Save Lives, do they not?
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Peter, I think we both attended the same school - the Academy of Hard Knots....:lol:

Whether unraveling the mysteries of the Gordian knot or Gideon's paradox, both Jim Bowie and Alexander taught me that there were a quicker ways to solve perplexing problems - cutting to the chase: Why are any blades illegal?

If I could not carry a gun, I would most likely be seen OCing a gladius or at least a pūgiō - a pretty one too. What say you [strike]Brutus[/strike] Peter - a big Knives Save Lives, do they not?

The leaf shaped blades like the Gladius have always been the top combat blades. Cutting, the edge is always at an angle and they are great stabbing blades also as opposed to the Japanese swords that are great slashers but suck at thrusting.....

But, if I had to carry a knife/sword, it would probably be a Kukri. They share the same cutting abilities as the leaf shaped blades less the secod edge, stab reasonably well and are a primary tool as well.

The Gurkas that made them famous never really had any training with them as a weapon, it was what they used in day to day life to work the fields.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
The leaf shaped blades like the Gladius have always been the top combat blades. Cutting, the edge is always at an angle and they are great stabbing blades also as opposed to the Japanese swords that are great slashers but suck at thrusting.....

But, if I had to carry a knife/sword, it would probably be a Kukri. They share the same cutting abilities as the leaf shaped blades less the secod edge, stab reasonably well and are a primary tool as well.

The Gurkas that made them famous never really had any training with them as a weapon, it was what they used in day to day life to work the fields.

Cold Steel has a different history on their web page: http://www.coldsteel.com/sanmaigurkha.html

I would just be happy if I could throw my Dad's WWII Kbar in my coat.
 
Top