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First encounter with LEO

endlesskustumz

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Indiana
I OC'ed for the first time at the County Fair and was approached by 3 County Sheriffs.

I was Ocing for about an hour and then basically ambushed by 3 Porter County Sheriffs.When I say ambushed, I mean they came out of no where. I had two on my right side (where my gun was) and one facing me who was talking to me. He was very polite, asked for my LTCH and ID. Said I wasnt allowed to carry on the grounds. Let me wait for my girlfriend to get off the ride since i had our kid in the stroller.. He asked me about the length it took to get my LTCH as well and seemed curious. They all left while I was still waiting for my girlfriend to get off the ride. First encounter with LEO and it was an excellent one. Hope all my encounters are that way.

My question is, How do I know if I can carry at the Porter Couny fair?
 

skeith5

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2012
Messages
356
Location
United States
Doesn't seem like a very excellent encounter to me... they ambush you, tell you that you can't carry when it looks like you legally can. Am I missing something?
 

cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
265
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
The most direct way to find out is ask the police who said you can't carry, "Why not?"

If they say it's state law or a local ordinance, then their answer is bogus.

If it's a rule by the fair board and the fair board is a private board, not a "political subsection" then they can ask you to leave if you are carrying.

I have not been able to figure out whether the fair board is or is not a political subsection. This is a relevant question due to http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch11.1.html
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Did they request that you leave? It seems that they were not too concerned about you if they left you where they made contact with you. Or, did one or more remain with visual range of you to be sure you left the grounds? More details please? Is there a recording of this event?
 

endlesskustumz

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Indiana
Did they request that you leave? It seems that they were not too concerned about you if they left you where they made contact with you. Or, did one or more remain with visual range of you to be sure you left the grounds? More details please? Is there a recording of this event?

He just asked to put it in my vehicle. I didn't notice anybody following or watching us. No recording either.

He is email to and from Porter County Sheriff:

Sheriff ,

Hello, I was at the Porter County Fair yesterday and while I was carrying my sidearm with me and was asked politely to take it back to my vehicle. I complied and when I got home I read up on the laws about carrying at the fair. I have found out that if the fair ground is owned by the county and run by the county then it is illegal to enforce signage posted on the fences. If I am wrong would you be able to provide me with the law of which can be enforced?

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Me

Thank you for the complimentary words about our officer. I am curious how he knew that you were armed. Did you mention it, or was it visible at the time?
In answer to your question, the fairgrounds is rented by the Agricultural Society from the county during the fair. The renters have set certain prohibitions for the property including firearms and alcohol. The Society contracts for security.

Sheriff
 

endlesskustumz

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Indiana
Doesn't seem like a very excellent encounter to me... they ambush you, tell you that you can't carry when it looks like you legally can. Am I missing something?

It might not seem like it to you, but to me he was very polite and professional. He never talked down to me or acted like he was superior. I could have had my handgun stripped down, as i have read some Leos do on traffic stops.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
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Valhalla
It would appear that the primary consideration is not who owns the property but who controls it.

In this case a group of private actors (the Society) have rented the property to operate the fair. As tenants the enjoy certain privileges, one of which is to make and enforce rules on their leased property.

This is not unlike if you should rent a house - you determine who may enter and under what circumstances.
 

cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
265
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
Sounds like the agricultural society is not a political subsection under 11.1 and can set rules for their events. Sucks that the sheriff's department is contracted to enforce those rules.

Maybe an email to the agricultural society would accomplish nothing except to let you say what you want to say to the people who ought to be listening.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
It might not seem like it to you, but to me he was very polite and professional. He never talked down to me or acted like he was superior. I could have had my handgun stripped down, as i have read some Leos do on traffic stops.

I would like to invite you to change your standard. We have tons of reports on this forum of cops politely and professionally violating people's rights. In this case, from the rest of the thread, it sounds like he was legal to ask you to leave.

Separately, it can be a little dangerous sending off e-mails while uncertain about the legalities. Had it been illegal to carry at the fair, your e-mail was a written confession. Its better to get a fix on the legalitites before poking the bear. You never know when a superior or prosecutor might be actively opposed to self-defense rights, and might try to prosecute. It has happened. The two OCers that come to mind ended up spending a ton of money in legal defenses. One was successful, the other not.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Sounds like the agricultural society is not a political subsection under 11.1 and can set rules for their events. Sucks that the sheriff's department is contracted to enforce those rules.

Maybe an email to the agricultural society would accomplish nothing except to let you say what you want to say to the people who ought to be listening.

Whether contracted to enforce the rules or called to the scene by phone matters little I think. Assuming the fair can make its own rules, the fair need only ask you to leave. If you don't, the fair can just call the deputies to remove a trespasser.
 
Last edited:

Lord Sega

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
311
Location
Warrenton, Oregon
It may make a difference under your state laws if the Agricultural Society is renting or leasing, something for legal beagles to look into.

But here's my real question: Is it a County Fair where the Agricultural Society is paid to manage and run the fair for the County OR is it the Agricultural Society's county fair?

If the Agricultural Society pays the county to rent or lease the land to hold their fair on, ok then they probably (IANAL) can control carry at the event.
BUT, if the County pays the Agricultural Society to manage and run the fair for the County, then I believe (IANAL) it is a county event and normal public carry rules should apply.

So, find out who pays who, then check with a lawyer.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
It would appear that the primary consideration is not who owns the property but who controls it.

In this case a group of private actors (the Society) have rented the property to operate the fair. As tenants the enjoy certain privileges, one of which is to make and enforce rules on their leased property.

This is not unlike if you should rent a house - you determine who may enter and under what circumstances.

he who has the guns, makes the rules ! :lol:
 

endlesskustumz

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Indiana
I would like to invite you to change your standard. We have tons of reports on this forum of cops politely and professionally violating people's rights. In this case, from the rest of the thread, it sounds like he was legal to ask you to leave.

Separately, it can be a little dangerous sending off e-mails while uncertain about the legalities. Had it been illegal to carry at the fair, your e-mail was a written confession. Its better to get a fix on the legalitites before poking the bear. You never know when a superior or prosecutor might be actively opposed to self-defense rights, and might try to prosecute. It has happened. The two OCers that come to mind ended up spending a ton of money in legal defenses. One was successful, the other not.

The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.
 

cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
265
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.

There are a lot of people posting in this thread who are obviously unfamiliar with Indiana law.

I think you handled it perfectly.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.

Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
The LEO could have been a dick about the whole thing and made me leave right then and there and followed me the whole way back.

Also, i know where it is illegal to carry and a county fair is not one of the places. Could only be asked to leave if i didn't abide by their rules. If i don't comply then its criminal trespass.

I noticed your not from Indiana and laws vary state to state.

Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.
He would have had to have known the rule making authority to complete that equation.

If county owned and operated, then OC or CC with permit would have been legal. Then asking him to leave would have been improper.

With a venue in place, then the trespass element become viable. Don't see that he knew who was making the rules at the time.

Hindsight is 20/20 - foresight doesn't approach that. There is no penalty for not having perfect vision. We are all here to share and learn.
 

endlesskustumz

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Indiana
There are a lot of people posting in this thread who are obviously unfamiliar with Indiana law.

I think you handled it perfectly.

Thank you, sir.

Oh, I see. I didn't realize you knew for sure at the time of the encounter or at the point you sent the e-mail. My apologies.

No need to apologize. I was just informing you since I realized you were from out of state.

He would have had to have known the rule making authority to complete that equation.

If county owned and operated, then OC or CC with permit would have been legal. Then asking him to leave would have been improper.

With a venue in place, then the trespass element become viable. Don't see that he knew who was making the rules at the time.

Hindsight is 20/20 - foresight doesn't approach that. There is no penalty for not having perfect vision. We are all here to share and learn.

Exactly, that's basically why I came here. To ask if anybody knew who ran it. Found my answer on another forum after i received the response from the Sheriff.

Thank you to all who responded and helped me out. Also, I hope a few people learned about Indiana laws in case they ever come this way.
 
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