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Dude arrested for miscounting rounds put into his pistol mag?

acmariner99

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Feb 12, 2010
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655
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Renton, Wa
The people to be upset at are the lawmakers making the laws and the governor whose signature makes the law official. You cannot get upset at a cop for enforcing it; cops don't make the laws, they just enforce them.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

So if you were an LEO would you go door to door to seize people's weapons if ordered to and the law said you had to? Would you round up white Christians if the law said you had to? Lets just take this to its logical conclusion shall we - laws are only as good as the will to enforce them is. Many Sheriffs in Colorado are saying they will not enforce the new high cap mag law there. I do not know of any particular case where somebody was thrown the book in California because they brought a high cap mag into the state. Cops have a great deal of discretion when choosing to apply a particular law. The enforcement arm of government has a choice to decide whether they are going to enforce an unconstitutional law or not.
 

XD40sc

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
402
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NC
Sorry but my job is my and my family's well being. No way on Earth would I jeopardize it because I disagree with a company policy (or in this case, a law that I'm supposed to enforce).

I hope the people you works with understand that you cannot be trusted any further than they could throw a bus. But I suspect they do, those without moral or ethical standards are very easy to quickly spot.
 

WalkingWolf

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I hope the people you works with understand that you cannot be trusted any further than they could throw a bus. But I suspect they do, those without moral or ethical standards are very easy to quickly spot.
Yes they are, as I have pointed out before it has to do with control issues. A failure to exercise self control, and a penchant for trying to control others. It is a disaster in the making for somebody, just a matter of who.
 

DryBones

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
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Location
Northern Virginia
It is just so obvious that this guy was targeted because he was a gun owner. Cop runs a tag from his patrol car, comes back registered to this guy, and he is flagged as a gun permit holder.

Then look for 'something', any reason possible to pull him over. There it is, that tag light.

"Good evening sir, I pulled you over because your tag light is out, let me count your bullets." Cops do and have always profiled who they pull over. Ever hear of "driving while black" profiling that is still a common practice?

Pulled for a tag light........... has anyone here, or anyone you know been pulled over for something so minor?

I suggest this guy was targeted because of the suspended license. ran his tag number and showed the owner was suspended. stopped for the light to get his license story and then noticed the gun. If he had not been operatiing with a suspended license he may never even have been pulled over. BTW, If you are driving around with a suspended license...why are you carrying a handgun with too many rounds? just asking for trouble or stupid?
 

EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
One, there is no constitutional case law in either New York or the Federal system that upholds a right to load x number of rounds in a magAzine. Furthermore, as Per the 10th amendment states have the right to make such was unless it violates their Own constitution or a fundamental right incorporated via the 14th amendment. Go back to square 1. The law is presumably constitutional until proven otherwise.

Two, the guy arrested did not accidentally load two more rounds...

He is either A) too stupid to count from 1 to 7 B) doesn't care or C ) wanted to challenge the law so chose to act in a way guaranteed to get him in trouble.

Will he fight the charges, I hope so, will he win, I really do hope he wins and gets some good case law on our side, but as of now this is an area with no precedent.
 

davidmcbeth

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One, there is no constitutional case law in either New York or the Federal system that upholds a right to load x number of rounds in a magAzine. Furthermore, as Per the 10th amendment states have the right to make such was unless it violates their Own constitution or a fundamental right incorporated via the 14th amendment. Go back to square 1. The law is presumably constitutional until proven otherwise.

Two, the guy arrested did not accidentally load two more rounds...

He is either A) too stupid to count from 1 to 7 B) doesn't care or C ) wanted to challenge the law so chose to act in a way guaranteed to get him in trouble.

Will he fight the charges, I hope so, will he win, I really do hope he wins and gets some good case law on our side, but as of now this is an area with no precedent.

Uuuuh..the 2nd and 9th amendments maybe? You saying that only people who can count can use firearms (assuming the guy cannot count)?

Laws are presumed to be constitutional until shown otherwise (at least assumed to be legal by the government). But I can state that the law is unconstitutional ~~ heck, I was selling hand guns to people in Chicago for years during their prohibition because I thought that the prohibition was unconstitutional (and I was correct).

I don't need a court ruling to know what is constitutional or not. And, the internment of the Japanese during WWII was upheld by the courts and has never been struck down -- so is interment constitutional? Nobody believes so anymore. You act like the law is always correct....its not.

That's why we have guns .... duh !
 

EMNofSeattle

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Uuuuh..the 2nd and 9th amendments maybe? You saying that only people who can count can use firearms (assuming the guy cannot count)?

Laws are presumed to be constitutional until shown otherwise (at least assumed to be legal by the government). But I can state that the law is unconstitutional ~~ heck, I was selling hand guns to people in Chicago for years during their prohibition because I thought that the prohibition was unconstitutional (and I was correct).

I don't need a court ruling to know what is constitutional or not. And, the internment of the Japanese during WWII was upheld by the courts and has never been struck down -- so is interment constitutional? Nobody believes so anymore. You act like the law is always correct....its not.

That's why we have guns .... duh !

maybe so, but the people who were interned later got compensated. if the internees had gone all second amendment on the government then they would've killed and put in conditions so harsh it would rival nazi camps....

being right has no bearing if you're dead.

as far as the New York law, as much as it is stupid, the people of New York through their state legislature have the right to enact whatever laws they want, and it's presumed constitutional until proven otherwise. The law may not always be right in a moral or ethical sense. but until struck down, it is the law. unless the law is so egregious that it is plainly unconstitutional and violates well established rights. for example, Texas's sodomy law remains on the books despite being struck down, since that law is proven unconstitutional it cannot be enforced, and if it is the officers and DA can be personally liable under federal law.
 

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
EXACTLY!

This counts as "law enforcement." Too bad some "law enforcement" officers have different priorities, because not all "law enforcement" meets quotas, or bags "collars."

We should start calling them "revenuers".

Officer discretion is the/a relief valve...SNIP

Jury nullification.

He may or may not agree with the law, but he wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't enforce it (he is a law ENFORCEMENT officer, after all).

As far as I am concerned, anybody who considers their job to be first and foremost "law enforcement", probably doesn't require his job anyway. Or rather, we don't require his job. He just doesn't deserve it.

Laws which create crimes without victims don't need to be enforced, and you don't need "law enforcement" to see that crimes with victims end up in court.
 
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WalkingWolf

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maybe so, but the people who were interned later got compensated. if the internees had gone all second amendment on the government then they would've killed and put in conditions so harsh it would rival nazi camps....

being right has no bearing if you're dead.

as far as the New York law, as much as it is stupid, the people of New York through their state legislature have the right to enact whatever laws they want, and it's presumed constitutional until proven otherwise. The law may not always be right in a moral or ethical sense. but until struck down, it is the law. unless the law is so egregious that it is plainly unconstitutional and violates well established rights. for example, Texas's sodomy law remains on the books despite being struck down, since that law is proven unconstitutional it cannot be enforced, and if it is the officers and DA can be personally liable under federal law.
Correction, if a law is unconstitutional it IS unconstitutional BEFORE it is proven otherwise. The courts only agree or disagree that a law is unconstitutional. In as early as 1803 the SCOTUS affirmed that unconstitutional laws are void.
 

davidmcbeth

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Correction, if a law is unconstitutional it IS unconstitutional BEFORE it is proven otherwise. The courts only agree or disagree that a law is unconstitutional. In as early as 1803 the SCOTUS affirmed that unconstitutional laws are void.

The poster said "presumed to be constitutional" ... not that it is or is not ... just a technical opinion
 

WalkingWolf

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The poster said "presumed to be constitutional" ... not that it is or is not ... just a technical opinion

What the poster was implying that to keep his hypo job he WOULD violate the constitution to keep his hypo job. If a individual knows that a law is unconstitutional even without the courts pat on the back he is committing treason to force it.
 

davidmcbeth

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What the poster was implying that to keep his hypo job he WOULD violate the constitution to keep his hypo job. If a individual knows that a law is unconstitutional even without the courts pat on the back he is committing treason to force it.

Taken as a part of the whole of his responses/posts I guess you are right ....

Once cannot hide behind presumptions IMO ... a LEO must not enforce laws he BELIEVES to be unconstitutional .. just hiding behind a presumption is not enough IMO
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Taken as a part of the whole of his responses/posts I guess you are right ....

Once cannot hide behind presumptions IMO ... a LEO must not enforce laws he BELIEVES to be unconstitutional .. just hiding behind a presumption is not enough IMO

First off, what Wolf described is not treason, treason is very specifically described in the constitution

second off, whether or not a law or order is unconstitutional and should be treated as such is a huge gray area with little guidance. The current case law on qualified immunity says an officer loses their QI for committing acts in violation of "well established law" so an order to search a car absent probable cause is clearly unconstitutional. or a law allowing such, however there is no clearly established law on this subject. both the Heller and McDonald decisions were decided on a narrow ruling about outright bans on common types of small arms. no mention was made to CC, AWBs, mag capacity, etc etc etc. there is little case law on the subject, and none in New York. so in the opinion of people who support RKBA (myself included) this very well is a violation of the second amendment. but a case can be made that it is not.

I was recently at the WA state law library in Olympia, and in the basement they have some kind of publication of canadian law, so I randomly picked up one from the late 1980s and began reading, it was about the nuremberg principle and the duty of members of the Canadian Forces to disobey "unlawful orders" after 20 pages of rambling case law, the big punchline was, you don't know the order was unlawful until being court-martialed for disobeying it.

basically what I'm saying, the constitutionality of a specific law is rarely black and white.
 

tattedupboy

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Aug 10, 2006
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Gary, Indiana, USA
He's in Indiana, it is not his concern, and he is not even a LEO which he did not bother to tell until push came to shove. But he would probably make a good NYS police candidate, he has that progressive mindset.

No progressive mindset here. Apparently I'm the only one on here who can see what a tough spot a police officer would be in having to choose between enforcing an unconstitutional law or keeping his job. No one else can see the dilemma here?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 
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davidmcbeth

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No progressive mindset here. Apparently I'm the only one on here who can see what a tough spot a police officer would be in having to choose between enforcing an unconstitutional law or keeping his job. No one else can see the dilemma here?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

No one else. That should tell you something .... instead, not.
 

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
No progressive mindset here. Apparently I'm the only one on here who can see what a tough spot a police officer would be in having to choose between enforcing an unconstitutional law or keeping his job. No one else can see the dilemma here?

I can see the dilemma, I just don't give a crap.

I'm not filled with sympathy for the poor Germans who were ordered to kill millions of Jews either.

Simple solution: if you're in American law enfarcement today, get a productive job.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
How is it that the state that is home to the statue of liberty, has no liberty. Of course keep in mind that the people of NY voted for these tyrants.


And why I refuse to recognize the "rule of majority".

I bet if we look close and count all the non voters (the votes of no-confidence) we'd find it's still the rule of minority though.

Those who think we should wait to let judges figure it out, or they would do so because its their job, really have no clue of what unconstitutional means.....
 

countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
If the driver was aware of his rights and did not consent to a search and seizure of his person or his vehicle or the contents of the vehicle, I see this case being pleaded to a simple motor vehicle violation.Also if the troopers failed to read the driver his rights the case will also be considered a motor vehicle violation.
My .02

CCJ
 

homerfire232

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Feb 20, 2010
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Upstate, New York, USA
The DA has refused to prosecute this guy under the guise of budget cuts, I think he just didn't want the publicity of being the first DA in NY to tag someone under the SAFE Act. But either way, it is a mute point now. I believe most upstate DA's will decline to prosecute these laws also, considering over 85% of counties in NY have passed opposition and called for the repeal of the SAFE Act. My question is this...without a search warrant, can a police officer remove the magazine from the weapon and count the bullets? What was his PC that the guy had more than the required 7 rounds in the magazine? I can understand the BS arguement LEO's make about officer safety, so take the weapon, run the serial number, verify that its legally owned and secure it in the police car until the stop is complete, then return the weapon. There is NO reason to illegally search your weapon, thats like going into your pockets or your trunk because you have a NRA t-shirt or bumper sticker.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201305...SAFE-Act?odyssey=mod|newswell|img|Frontpage|p
 
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