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Does it make you fell big?

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Id be an idiot (no offense to anyone) not to use the crap out of it for a while. Thats a lot of time and money to wear a jacket over something that you have every right to walk around with in the first place.

I agree that licensed CC is an egregious infringement on the RKBA, and is REALLY just 1) a revenue stream for Sheriffs departments, and 2) a way to keep poor people from being able to exercise their human right of self-defense.

However, I have permits issued by 3 different states, and I use them. In the winter or during bad weather, it's nice to know that I don't have to worry about covering my firearm with a coat. When I'm wearing a suit, or "dressing up" to go to a fancy restaurant or event with my family, it's nice to know that I can legally wear a sports coat over my firearm and not worry about it.

I agree--Constitutional carry (VT or AK-style) should be the NORM, not the exception. But it's not, and it will take a LOT of work to get the rest of the states in line. We're working on that, and having success, nationwide, little by little.
 
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Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
And once again I will say, I talk about both. Pros vs Con's. Since it is a concealed carry class I will talk more about concealment vs OC. What they do outside of the class is up to them, I just know that the ones I've stayed in contact with carry conceal vs OC.


As for the "pros and cons" of OC vs. CC, let me guess what some of the "cons" are for OC that you discuss, based on my experience with other CC instructors:

1) you will be hassled by LE,
2) you will scare soccer moms and children,
3) someone will "grab your gun",
4) you will be a target in the event of a robbery.

OK, let's address these myths:

1) hassled by police--this is NOT a "con", it's actually a "pro". Every time police hassle an OCer, it gives us the opportunity to educate the system as to the 100% legality of OC in our state. Usually, they back off if you start quoting statutes and case law, and if they don't the courts almost ALWAYS rune on our side. Actually, cases involving lawful OC almost never make it to court in NC, because most DAs know how to research the law, and toss the charges before it makes it to court.

2) Again, if some citizen gets up in your face about OC, it is a PRO not a Con. It gives us the opportunity to educate them, hand them a brochure, or point them toward online case law and statutes. Public Relations is a VERY powerful tool in the battle toward "normalizing" defensive carry, and when people start to realise that OC is legal, they will not see it as something threatening or odd.

3) Gun Grabs... Please supply us with a SINGLE instance of this happening to an OCing citizen by a criminal in the State of NC (or even in any of our "border" states!)--EVER--in the history of this state. Then we can discuss just how silly this "argument" really is... Plus, most OCers use some level of retention holster--Serpas (level 2) or thumb-snaps--which make "gun grabs" very difficult.

4) Ditto #3. Please give a single, documented example of a lawful OCer EVERY being attacked specifically because the "bad guy" saw him OCin--in the history of NC. We'll wait...

Instructors should be giving information and advice based on fact, real-world experience, and using documented, legitimate information--NOT personal bias, urban myths, or anti-gun propaganda. Any time an instructor repeats one of these myths (gun grabs, being a target, etc) they do a disservice to lawful gun owners and the RKBA movement by perpetuating this disinformation.

They also insult the intelligence of their students and discredit the profession of "instructor" by giving their students information that is EASILY disprovable by anyone with half a brain and access to Goggle.

If you don't like OC and are a CC instructor, then don't talk about it. If someone asks, tell them the TRUTH--it's legal, and you don't need a permit, but it has many of the same restrictions that CC has with regards to prohibited carry locations.

But please don't perpetuate urban myths, anti-gun propaganda, and your own self-interest by spreading lies and disinformation. Such behavior is a disgrace to the teaching profession, and only serves to build distrust among your students.
 
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WTFOVER

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
111
Location
WNC
1) you will be hassled by LE,
2) you will scare soccer moms and children,
3) someone will "grab your gun",
4) you will be a target in the event of a robbery.

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No
But thanks for playing though.

Here is what is talked about.

1. Carrying position in relation to OC vs CC -
2. Carrying positon in releation to OC vs CC in the event your strong hand is injuryed and what to do if that event were to happen
3. "Fashion carry" IE purses, fanny packs, etc and how to carry & retrieve the weapon from each

Thats just a few that I spend time on. If I'm asked about the whole CC vs OC thing then we will stop and talk about it. I'm asked atleast once a class which I prefer and I state which I prefer.

Sometimes I use my IWB, sometimes my OWB ... but in either case I'm OCing... I don't get the distinction you are making. Are you implying that IWB is concealed carry?

IWB with a shirt tucked is CC not OC. If I wanted to wear the IWB with the grip of the pistol sticking out then I would just wear my OWB holster and be done with it.
 

sultan62

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,311
Location
Clayton, NC
snip
I prefer concealment and harp on concealment pretty hard in my classes just for the simple reason that the OP posted about.

As for the "pros and cons" of OC vs. CC, let me guess what some of the "cons" are for OC that you discuss, based on my experience with other CC instructors:
...
2) you will scare soccer moms and children,

...
2. No
...

Care to try again?

IWB with a shirt tucked is CC not OC. If I wanted to wear the IWB with the grip of the pistol sticking out then I would just wear my OWB holster and be done with it.

Incorrect, provided the butt of the pistol is showing and is recognizable as such.
 
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elixin77

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
591
Location
Greenville, NC, ,
IWB with a shirt tucked is CC not OC. If I wanted to wear the IWB with the grip of the pistol sticking out then I would just wear my OWB holster and be done with it.

Wrong. As long as an individual is able to identify that the object attached to your belt, is in fact, a gun, then it doesn't matter whether you wear an IWB or OWB holster. I've seen several OC'ers carry openly with an IWB, and it is still open, as long as the shirt is tucked in behind the gun (ala virginia tuck).
 

CarryHard

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
57
Location
Charlotte NC
As for the "pros and cons" of OC vs. CC, let me guess what some of the "cons" are for OC that you discuss, based on my experience with other CC instructors:

1) you will be hassled by LE,
2) you will scare soccer moms and children,
3) someone will "grab your gun",
4) you will be a target in the event of a robbery.

.


3).
There is a thread on this forum and probably others where a guy in target started screaming
"Hes got a gun!!!"
and tried to grab the guys pistol
 

cricketdad

Regular Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
381
Location
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
As for the "pros and cons" of OC vs. CC, let me guess what some of the "cons" are for OC that you discuss, based on my experience with other CC instructors:

1) you will be hassled by LE,
2) you will scare soccer moms and children,
3) someone will "grab your gun",
4) you will be a target in the event of a robbery.

OK, let's address these myths:

1) hassled by police--this is NOT a "con", it's actually a "pro". Every time police hassle an OCer, it gives us the opportunity to educate the system as to the 100% legality of OC in our state. Usually, they back off if you start quoting statutes and case law, and if they don't the courts almost ALWAYS rune on our side. Actually, cases involving lawful OC almost never make it to court in NC, because most DAs know how to research the law, and toss the charges before it makes it to court.

2) Again, if some citizen gets up in your face about OC, it is a PRO not a Con. It gives us the opportunity to educate them, hand them a brochure, or point them toward online case law and statutes. Public Relations is a VERY powerful tool in the battle toward "normalizing" defensive carry, and when people start to realise that OC is legal, they will not see it as something threatening or odd.

3) Gun Grabs... Please supply us with a SINGLE instance of this happening to an OCing citizen by a criminal in the State of NC (or even in any of our "border" states!)--EVER--in the history of this state. Then we can discuss just how silly this "argument" really is... Plus, most OCers use some level of retention holster--Serpas (level 2) or thumb-snaps--which make "gun grabs" very difficult.

4) Ditto #3. Please give a single, documented example of a lawful OCer EVERY being attacked specifically because the "bad guy" saw him OCin--in the history of NC. We'll wait...
.

The State's evidence tended to show on 20 March 1996 Danny Bayless (Bayless) was working at Lucas Rod and Reel in Fayetteville when he heard loud voices coming from Willis Grocery Store (store). The two businesses were in the same building and shared a common entrance door to the outside. Bayless then heard Randy Carter (Carter), a clerk at the store, cry out “Save me, save me.” As Bayless entered the store to investigate, he observed Carter on the floor being struck in the head with a pistol by defendant. As defendant turned the pistol, which actually belonged to Carter, toward Bayless, Bayless fired his own pistol and shot defendant in the chest. Defendant fired three shots at Bayless, striking him with each, and turned and fired “at least” two shots at Carter, killing him. Defendant then removed cash from the store's register and fled.

Danny and Randy were both friends of mine. Both OCed. Randy was killed in this incident and several months later a guy entered the store and killed Danny before he could draw.

Randy's "pistol" was actually a .357 mag revolver.
 
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Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?75201-Target-Encounter-Everett-Washington

here is the story

the guy tried to take his gun and also wanted him to shoot him with it.

Also the user above me just told another story about 2 guys who OC being attacked

I hardly call that a true grab attempt the guy was obviously being a dick and wanting to test the OC-ers patience and see if he could get him in trouble. simple having a retention holster prevented that from escalating. Besides that is one story out of hundreds of members who OC on a daily basis (this is hardly proof on concept for the point)

Instructors should be giving information and advice based on fact, real-world experience, and using documented, legitimate information--NOT personal bias, urban myths, or anti-gun propaganda. Any time an instructor repeats one of these myths (gun grabs, being a target, etc) they do a disservice to lawful gun owners and the RKBA movement by perpetuating this disinformation.

Of course instructors for CHP classes are bias. They are salesman first. They only make money when people take their class and if they walk around preaching that OC and CC are equals then why would people bother to pay all that money and invest all that time when OC is just as good. So CHP instructors have invented this special language to describe the benefits of their class to make it seem more appealing to everyone.

In reality CHP is nothing more than the largest single infringement of a persons RTBA. A clear violation of the 2nd admentment and the sheriffs office wont be doing anything about it because for them its a great source of income. pay be 80 dollars and ill run your name through a computer and get back to you via a 42 cent stamp in 30-45 days.

Now Im not saying that CC is less beneficial than OC. There are situations where CC would most defintilty be a better option, but to me going through all that trouble to cover it up when I can just as easily wear it in the open isnt worth it.

Personally when I am around I carry on my belt about 3:30 / 4 in a retention holster. It can not be seen from the front, is still very easily accessible, and is still in plain sight. If I am in a crowded place where full situational awareness is harder I'll slide it forward some to between 2:30 and 3.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?75201-Target-Encounter-Everett-Washington

here is the story

the guy tried to take his gun and also wanted him to shoot him with it.

Also the user above me just told another story about 2 guys who OC being attacked


This doesn't fit the standard anti-OC format. These "gun grab" attempts were NOt thugs or criminals--they were mentally-unbalanced hoplophobes attempting to provoke a response from a lawful OCer. They had no desire to steal the OCers gun, or commit a crime. They were just nutcases...

And besides, their attempts were UNSUCCESSFUL due to the quick thinking and effective retention training of the OCers.

FAIL...
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
The State's evidence tended to show on 20 March 1996 Danny Bayless (Bayless) was working at Lucas Rod and Reel in Fayetteville when he heard loud voices coming from Willis Grocery Store (store)....


The Bayless case doesn't count as an "OCer will be the first one attacked" for several reasons.

1) he was NOT the first one attacked--the store owner he was attempting to help was,
2) he inserted himself willfully into a violent situation,
3) he shot first (not the BG)
4) the BG didn't target him because he was OCing, he shot Bayless because Bayless interrupted a crime while defensively armed, in an attempt to bring an end to it. Teh BG shot Bayless because he was a BG in the midst of committing a crime--NOT because Bayless was OCing,
5) Bayless wasn't OCing when he was shot--he had his gun in his hand, in a "ready" position--that doesn't count as OCing in any jurisdiction...

Not discounting the tragedy of this event--it was a senseless crime, and my prayers are with the Bayless family--I've shopped at their establishment many times when I lived in the area. Mr. Bayless was a brave, honorable man who died trying to save another's life, and for that he should be remembered and honored.

But this just doesn't fit the parameters of the discussion...
 
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WTFOVER

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
111
Location
WNC
Care to try again?

Nope. I said if it was asked about we would then talk about it. It usually gets asked atleast once per class when it comes to the hands on portion of the class.



Incorrect, provided the butt of the pistol is showing and is recognizable as such.

Thats just it, the butt isn't showing. No portion of my Glock is showing when I wear my IWB. If I wanted any part to show then I would just go ahead and OC.

Wrong. As long as an individual is able to identify that the object attached to your belt, is in fact, a gun, then it doesn't matter whether you wear an IWB or OWB holster. I've seen several OC'ers carry openly with an IWB, and it is still open, as long as the shirt is tucked in behind the gun (ala virginia tuck).

See above.
 

WTFOVER

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
111
Location
WNC
This doesn't fit the standard anti-OC format. These "gun grab" attempts were NOt thugs or criminals--they were mentally-unbalanced hoplophobes attempting to provoke a response from a lawful OCer. They had no desire to steal the OCers gun, or commit a crime. They were just nutcases...

And besides, their attempts were UNSUCCESSFUL due to the quick thinking and effective retention training of the OCers.

FAIL...

But in your post and I quote "3) someone will "grab your gun",

Never said it had to be a criminal, could be just like the link provided. The person may not have actually got the weapon but they did try.
 
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