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CPL holders 'live in a dream world' - aka, why training is important.

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
In all their examples, the bad guys knew who they were going after. This is about as realistic as Grand Theft Auto. Other than their first intended target, the instructor, real bad guys are not going to know who to shoot at. And their clothing was all wrong. It was too easy for their weapons to get hung up on their clothes. Those white shirts were great for seeing if they'd been hit, but sucked as concealment garments.

Did those people actually practice drawing from concealment? I seriously doubt it.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
For the sake of Pete!

Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
No, you don't. You don't even know a single one, as you have no right to decide who "shouldn't even have a gun".

Get over yourself.

Sorry, but you said it.

I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.
If we start judging others according to our own personal opinion of what should be "reasonable", "appropriate", or "acceptable", then we leave ourselves open to those standards being forced upon us by whoever happens to be... "in power". And those "in power" are more than willing to force compliance through economic coercion with insurance and through loss of freedom with using the law to incarcerate those who resist.

And I agree that whether an individual decides to be not be around someone they consider to lack in skill or decide to take the high road and help that person develop better skills is definitely a personal decision.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I have to agree somewhat- but there are people whose weapon handling skills make me nervous; I will go to the next county rather than be in their 'zone'.

May they have guns? Constitutional issue.

Should they have guns? That's a question for their insurance agent and attorney.

Should I be around them when they have guns? My choice.

Every so often I see poor weapon handling at the free, unsupervised, public range near my house.

I suppose I could flee in terror. Usually I'll politely rectify the behavior, if I think it rises to the level of being dangerous. It's not like most of these folks are trying to be reckless. Most of the time nobody's bothered to teach them any better.
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
For the sake of Pete!

Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.

In the "old west" days, people who wanted to become proficient with firearms, practiced....and practiced, and practiced, and practiced some more.

If you've ever seen the old western movie, "Warlock," with Henry Fonda, you might remember a scene, where he explains to the town council that hired him, why he works as a dealer in his friend's saloon. And he mentions that the $400.00 they pay him each month doesn't even cover the cost of the ammunition he uses up in practice.

Back in that time, the typical salary for a lawman was about $150.00 to $200.00 a month. And we'd kill for the ammo prices they had then.

My point is, if you're like me, you practice as much as you can. You practice your marksmanship at the range. But, considering most public ranges don't allow drawing from the holster, you practice your drawing technique at home. Preferably with a practice weapon, or at the very least, an unloaded firearm. If you don't, you might find your reflexes wanting in a real SHTF situation. So, practice, practice, and practice some more.
 

casper

Guest
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
266
Location
Holland, MI.
No, you don't. You don't even know a single one, as you have no right to decide who "shouldn't even have a gun".

Get over yourself.

Sorry, but you said it.
Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
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Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.

Although it was not very diplomatic, I think I preferred your first response.

However, I am glad you changed it, since I would have had to delete or modify it myself. :)

Now, can we all just get along and maybe get back on topic?

Thank you.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Your right I.m wrong, forgive me please. Thank you for treating me with respect also. Thanks for telling me what I think as well. What a friendly forum. I'm so stupid, I don't know a darn thing. Thanks for setting me straight.

I apologize. I was too brusque.

I can be that way sometimes, and it's my failing, not yours.
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
This is mostly meant as anti-gun propaganda, but could be construed as 'why you should train'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

ETA: Regardless of the video's original intent or media agenda, there is good information/examples about why training above and beyond your CPL course is a good idea.

Evil - this "test" was complete bunk using flawed concepts and inexperienced carriers. Would love to see it done with veteran OCers - something tells me bad guy gets one or two shots off max before receiving a heavy dose of "incoming" rounds. But this would never happen - why? Because it does not fit the "media's agenda."

Many CCers are slow at the draw, but as mentioned this is easily overcome with practice and equipment / clothing adjustments.
 

Haman J.T.

New member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,245
Location
, ,
For the sake of Pete!

Honest honorable law abiding people have managed to defend themselves with guns without any special "training" for decades! It is only recently when some people have discovered there is money to be made with "training" that there has been a focus on.... you guessed it... "training".

What did people do back in the old days when there wasn't any uber tactical super duper experts offering "training"? Well....law abiding folks managed to defend themselves with their guns ... without paying big bucks to self appointed "experts" who say that "training" is necessary.

Sure "training" has value in preparing people to respond more effectively for the time when they need to defend themselves... but History itself shows that people somehow manage to do it all on their own without training anyway. Perhaps not as well as if they did have the training yet they still managed without it.

Let us not fall into the latest BS that "training" is suddenly something that is "needed" in order to be able to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.. because I fear all this talk about "training" is laying the groundwork for exactly that... a requirement for a certain level of "training" to qualify for the right to keep and bear arms.
You're wrong! It's not decades(as if guns/self defense is new,as the anti's would have us believe),it's several hundred years of self defense with a gun has been going on!
And you're right about the training myth,specifically according to the Institute of Justice,which states 90% of defensive uses with guns only require "the appearance" of the gun(no shots),which is about 6000 + times a day! CARRY ON!
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
By the way, the video in the OP was retarded. I left a few comments on the tube indicating my assessment.

I'll keep it simple:

Taking a bunch of random pukes, giving them an afternoon's training, forcing them to concealed carry without hundreds (preferably thousands) of draw cycles, and then having a trained professional bust in and, knowing full well in advance exactly which of the guinea pigs is armed, target that individual specifically to make them feel dumb and prove a point = exactly how real life works.

:rolleyes:

If I were to play their little game, and approach it with the same dishonesty they did: I'd sit in the back, I'd open carry, and I'd insist on a "gunman" who wasn't trained and couldn't identify me specifically from prior knowledge.

I suspect the outcome wouldn't be so pat, then.

By the way, regarding the silly comment "our class is already way more training than most states require for a concealed weapons permit." The notion that training necessarily starts and stops with that mandated by the state reflects an attitude so hopelessly statist I'll not justify it with a further response.
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
Jesus guys... I know, I even mentioned, I thought, that this was propaganda. Just posted it because its one of those 'makes ya think' sort of things. I bet most of us on here would have done a lot better.

Also, I suppose I should have said *practice* instead of *training*, as some don't seem to realize the difference between "training" and training.

Consider the scenario though. Consider how valuable of a training exercise that would be if it was able to be simulated with unbiased people and done the right way [for example, the 'shooter' not knowing who the armed citizen was]

Also consider that there are probably a lot of people with about that level of skill carrying... which they have every right to do. But think about how it might affect your actions if you were involved in a situation with them.

Just trying to keep the blood flowing to your brains guys.
This was just meant as food for thought and nothing more.

As a side note, I'd like to get my hands on some of those paint-shooting glocks... but they're probably expensive.
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
By the way, regarding the silly comment "our class is already way more training than most states require for a concealed weapons permit." The notion that training necessarily starts and stops with that mandated by the state reflects an attitude so hopelessly statist I'll not justify it with a further response.

The parts of your post omitted from my quote are omitted because I have no disagreement with them :)

As for this statement, I also agree, however I feel I should point out that there are a great many who do stop there. As mentioned above, you should consider how this might affect you if involved in a situation with these people since, obviously, we would never tell them they can't carry as is their right.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The parts of your post omitted from my quote are omitted because I have no disagreement with them :)

As for this statement, I also agree, however I feel I should point out that there are a great many who do stop there. As mentioned above, you should consider how this might affect you if involved in a situation with these people since, obviously, we would never tell them they can't carry as is their right.

Of course. And if you want to carry to be cool, or for a "feeling" of safety, then that video might be of value.

But for those of us who are dedicated to and passionate about the pursuit, it's a joke.

In such a dumb "study", I might as well tell the gun carrier to hold the gun in his hand, and immediately shoot the first person coming through the door (knowing full well it will be the fake "bad guy"), and then just say, "oop, looky there, having a gun always saves the day. QED. Everyone go buy a gun."

In fact, we should get some OCers together and do that "study", for a laugh.
 
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