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Confusion over WY Open Carry restriction

SDguy

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sparky79 wrote:
latest artcilein Pine Bluffs Post... http://www.pinebluffspost.com/#gun

Well Sparky, what the city says and what they do seem to be two different things. Their inaction speaks volumes to me. I have already taken my business elsewhere since I simply no longer stop in Pine Bluffs like I used to on my regular trips thru the area.

I intend to continue to avoid Pine Bluffs.
 

AB

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sparky79 (joined: Wed Mar 11th, 2009) wrote:
...I said rationally and politely and from what I hear Mr. Bouchard was far from that. I spoke with a member of law enforcement who was at the last council meeting (not a PBPD officer by the way) and he was in agreement with Mayor Anderson in that Mr. Bouchard was way out of line. I agree with the town attorney all the ugliness and negativity made a simple thing of pointing out an outdated ordinance and asking it be changed made it into a complete mess...

The Real Headline as posted on: http://pinebluffswy.org/

Alert!Pine Bluffskeeps law on booksthey used against your constitutional rights.

Posted April 2, 2009

What is important here is statements the town attorney Alex Davison has previously stated:

” I can see how the law could also be interpreted to mean no open-carry at all” and ” I could prosecute and let the judge decide”.

These prior statements coupled withthe newest one”It is not the position of the governing council that open carry is prohibited by town ordinances“ is just more smoke and mirrors. To read articlefrom The Pine Bluffs Post, click here

These positions contradict each other andconfirm the need to remove all of 8-115 of their municipal code to stop any future abuses and misinterpretations.

To search codes of other Wyoming municipalities, click here
 

AB

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WyGO's Position as posted on: http://pinebluffswy.org/wygos-position

WyGO's Position

Posted: March 27, 2009

Municipal code 8-115has already been used by the Pine Bluffs police to threaten the rights of law abiding gun owners.

This law must be removed from the books to stop this from happening in the future, removing such laws also saves the town from law suits arising from these misinterpretations.

In my experience, these laws are left in place for one reason only to threaten the uninformed.

At this point we simply expect the mayor and council to do what they said they would do, which is "bring the town ordinance in line with state law concerning the open carry of firearms in town." and "modify the ordinance to comply with state statue" .

Sources:

"Speaking after the meeting, Anderson said the council does intend to bring the town ordinance in line with state law concerning the open carry of firearms in town."

-Pine Bluffs Post March 5, 2009

"Council will modify the ordinance to comply with state statue at a future meeting"
-Council meeting minutes March 2, 2009 as published in the Pine Bluffs Post March 12, 2009
 

BB62

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sparky79 wrote:
latest artcilein Pine Bluffs Post... http://www.pinebluffspost.com/#gun
Council has come full circle - almost.

Yesterday their law meant one thing, now it means another - and tomorrow?

They say they recognize preemption, while at the same time leaving their preempted law on the books.

It looks like WyGo (and those not fooled by the liars on council) should keep up their work.

Did anyone attend the council meeting?
 

Mjolnir

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It sure appears that you have given in to political pressure along with pressure from the town.

This just goes to show without a doubt that the good old boy system in in full effect in pine bluff and that if you do not do what they want and rock the boat life becomes miserable for you.

Shame to see you bending to the pressure but to live in a small town and make waves makes ones life ugly................

MatieA wrote:
I have met with the Mayor, and I still say that the Mayor has gun owners best interest at heart. This matter will not be taken care of in a hurry, and probably much slower that I would like; but I do believe that it will be taken care of, and if some people would be willing to ease off on bad-mouthing this town, the council might even decide to move a little faster.

This will be my last post on this thread, and I am unsubscribing to it so that I quit getting updates by email. There are to many people here who have NO faith in their fellow human beings, and are not willing to give anyone a chance to do the right thing without feeling the need to FORCE them into action.

I will continue to keepup on this issue, while helping the town come to a resolution in this matter, but will no longer participate in this thread.
 

Mjolnir

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Yes, drove past Pine on I80 the other day and just kept on going to Cheyenne.


SDguy wrote:
sparky79 wrote:
latest artcilein Pine Bluffs Post... http://www.pinebluffspost.com/#gun

Well Sparky, what the city says and what they do seem to be two different things. Their inaction speaks volumes to me. I have already taken my business elsewhere since I simply no longer stop in Pine Bluffs like I used to on my regular trips thru the area.

I intend to continue to avoid Pine Bluffs.
 

sparky79

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The following below is copied and pasted off the last online edition of the Pine Bluffs Post:

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]Following the county officials was Duncan Philp of the Wyoming Tyranny Response Team. Philp was on hand to show his support of the town in the open carry debate.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]“I was absolutely flabbergasted by the notion that Pine Bluffs is some sort of gun-grabbing municipality,” said Philp.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]In recent weeks, town officials have been involved in a flap with the Wyoming Gun Owners association due to the group’s perceived notion that town ordinances prohibit the open carry of fire arms.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]Philp took exception with the Wyoming Gun Owners response to the town and gave the town some of his views on the organization.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]“They don’t seem to have an inkling of how things are done,” Philp said referring to the Wyoming Gun Owners Association.[/font]

link for full article: http://www.pinebluffspost.com/#future
 

rpyne

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sparky79 wrote:
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]Following the county officials was Duncan Philp of the Wyoming Tyranny Response Team. Philp was on hand to show his support of the town in the open carry debate.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]“I was absolutely flabbergasted by the notion that Pine Bluffs is some sort of gun-grabbing municipality,” said Philp.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]In recent weeks, town officials have been involved in a flap with the Wyoming Gun Owners association due to the group’s perceived notion that town ordinances prohibit the open carry of fire arms.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]Philp took exception with the Wyoming Gun Owners response to the town and gave the town some of his views on the organization.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]“They don’t seem to have an inkling of how things are done,” Philp said referring to the Wyoming Gun Owners Association.[/font]
Either Duncan Philp is a puppet or he has not paid any attention to what has happened. If he thinks that Pine Bluffs is "gun friendly" he needs to go back a few weeks and read the newspaper article that quotes the officer flatly stating that anyone open carrying will be arrested and fined. Then add to that the people who phoned the city and asked and were told the same, even by the City Attorney.

And what a bunch of crap about "[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]perceived notion that town ordinances prohibit the open carry of fire arms." The city attorney said it in so many words until he was confronted with the state preemption law.[/font]
 

BB62

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rpyne wrote:
sparky79 wrote:
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]Following the county officials was Duncan Philp of the Wyoming Tyranny Response Team. Philp was on hand to show his support of the town in the open carry debate.[/font]

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"]“I was absolutely flabbergasted by the notion that Pine Bluffs is some sort of gun-grabbing municipality,” said Philp...[/font]
Either Duncan Philp is a puppet or he has not paid any attention to what has happened. If he thinks that Pine Bluffs is "gun friendly" he needs to go back a few weeks and read the newspaper article that quotes the officer flatly stating that anyone open carrying will be arrested and fined. Then add to that the people who phoned the city and asked and were told the same, even by the City Attorney...

+100

Hey, sparky79, how much are you being paid to be a shill for the mayor and council membes?
 

MamaLiberty

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I know this can get frustrating BB62 (and everyone), but let's not allow this to degenerate into name calling and silly accusations. How does that further the cause of liberty and justice, regardless of who does it? Don't we have enough of that to deal with from those who hate our freedom?

If we have proof of wrongdoing, then it should be posted. But let's not indulge in speculation and personal attacks.
 

sparky79

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MamaLiberty wrote:
I know this can get frustrating BB62 (and everyone), but let's not allow this to degenerate into name calling and silly accusations. How does that further the cause of liberty and justice, regardless of who does it? Don't we have enough of that to deal with from those who hate our freedom?

If we have proof of wrongdoing, then it should be posted. But let's not indulge in speculation and personal attacks.
Thank you MamaLiberty I have not at any time called anyone names on this posting site. My lasttwo post's have justbeen to inform people on this site what has been recently printed in the local newspaper. I have no connections to the government of the town or the newspaper. I was just letting you all know when something new was reported. I am now being called a shill being paid my themayor. In my last two post's I did not add any comment or remark about the article printed I just simply let you know what was printed and to let you make your own judgement on the article instead your judging me! Wow true colors are coming out if most of you are the kind of people who attack the messanger then I don't care if you don't ever stop in our town again.
 

rpyne

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sparky79 wrote:
I am now being called a puppet and accused of being paid. In my last two post's I did not add any comment or remark about the article printed I just simply let you know what was printed and to let you make your own judgement on the article instead your judging me! Wow everyones true colors are coming out if most of you are the kind of people who attack the messanger then I don't care if you don't ever stop in our town again.
Let me make it perfectly clear, please re-read what I wrote, I clearly referred to Mr. Duncan Philp as either being a puppet or ignoring previous information. After browsing their web site, it is very clear to me that his organization is nothing more than a front group for those in power in Wyoming.

Having spent a considerable amount of time in Wyoming, including working there for a year, I see the citizens rapidly making the same mistakes other states have made in that they are so secure in believing that their rights are protected that they have gone to sleep and are now allowing their rights to be stripped away from them without any protest.

Those of us who live outside of Wyoming are trying to tell you who live in Wyoming, please, don't let your rights be trampled by the liberals who are taking over the government there. Stand up and defend your rights while you can.

Any bad law that remains on the books, whether it is enforced or not, is still a bad law. The longer it remains on the books the more danger it poses to your rights and well being. If it stays on the books long enough, the day will come when it WILL be used against you.
 

MamaLiberty

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I understand, sparky. The bottom line here, however, is that we are all human. We all get frustrated and tired. We are all tempted to blame the messenger instead of those who are truly responsible. And we each see things from at least a somewhat different point of view, have our own agendas, and lots of other things.

Seems to me that if we keep our eyes on the goal of individual liberty, as sovereigns over our own lives, without aggression toward others - but with the hand of friendship extended in respect for the other person's individuality... we can't go wrong.

Let's worry less about hurt feelings or misunderstandings and put our grit and energy into learning how to function as free individuals in voluntary cooperation. That, I believe, is the only basis for a free society.

If we don't... then the slavers and haters and killers of liberty will surely engulf us all in their evil.
 

AB

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"The truth is they were to busy falling all over themselves protecting their own interpretation of the law instead of just doing the right thing"

sparky79 wrote:
...As for this forum I can't believe some people went as far to try to spread rumors...

...from what I hear Mr. Bouchard was far from that. I spoke with a member of law enforcement who was at the last council meeting (not a PBPD officer by the way) and he was in agreement with Mayor Anderson in that Mr. Bouchard was way out of line...
"From what I hear" Now sparky, isn't that how rumors start?

While I agree with Mama Liberty, I can't help but to look back at this comment posted by sparky79 and I am sure others have as well.

The truth is there are individuals that come on to this forum with the purpose of disruption.

I personally never thought that the "push back" in itself would ever keep this issue going on as far as it has.

It amuses me the way that these individualshave kept a "fight" going by themselves, they are merely shadow boxing.

What is important is not that WyGO had a "perceived notion that town ordinances prohibit the open carry of fire arms" as stated by these shadow boxers.

What the Mayor and council believed and how they interpreted the law is of the utmost importance.

Ifthe town officialsare blameless then what is the meaning of the following statements?

"This is and old, old ordinance" Said Mayor Leonard Anderson
-Pine Bluffs Post March 5, 2009


"Speaking after the meeting, Anderson said the council does intend to bring the town ordinance in line with state law concerning the open carry of firearms in town."
-Pine Bluffs Post March 5, 2009


"Council will modify the ordinance to comply with state statue at a future meeting"

-Council meeting minutes March 2, 2009 as published in the Pine Bluffs Post March 12, 2009

"I think this law was put on the books back in the days of Wild Bill Hickock," -Town Attorney, Alex Davison
-Pine Bluffs Post March 5, 2009

"The ordinance details the penalty for such violations noting that carrying an open firearm is anarrestable offense with a mandatory court appearance and a minimum $750 fine."
“This is a weapons violation and considered a high misdemeanor,”
Yeomans explained. -Officer Brian Yeomans
Pine Bluffs Post Feb 27, 2009

The truth is they were to busy falling all over themselves protecting their own interpretation of the law instead of just doing the right thing.
 

BB62

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MamaLiberty wrote:
I know this can get frustrating BB62 (and everyone), but let's not allow this to degenerate into name calling and silly accusations...
I accept your criticism,Mama,however, I find it more than a little interesting that various new OCDO membershave appeared on this thread, not answered direct questions, and havecast aspersions on AB (after MatieA appealed for help) and/or have blindly accepted the contradictory positions of PB elected officials.

I initially thought AB was seeing things in the shadows, but the way PB and their apologists have conducted themselves, he has been proven correct time and again.
 

BB62

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sparky79 wrote:
Thank you MamaLiberty I have not at any time called anyone names on this posting site. My lasttwo post's have justbeen to inform people on this site what has been recently printed in the local newspaper. I have no connections to the government of the town or the newspaper. I was just letting you all know when something new was reported... I am now being called a shill being paid my themayor. In my last two post's I did not add any comment or remark about the article printed I just simply let you know what was printed and to let you make your own judgement on the article instead your judging me! Wow true colors are coming out if most of you are the kind of people who attack the messanger then I don't care if you don't ever stop in our town again.
I apologize for my "paid shill" comment.

I was more reacting to the article than to you - BUT it does seem a little more than strange that youhave continued your assault on AB's character. What's your motivation? It sure appears to be more than mere dissemination of information.

"...I have not at any time called anyone names on this posting site."

No, but youcast aspersions on someone you didn't even hear. Why? Are you really unaware of the games your (you say)elected officials are playing, or are you playing them yourself?
 

SDguy

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I am not a member of AB's Wyoming group but he and I have had several phone conversations regarding the Pine Bluffs afair. I found AB to be fair but tough. You have to hold your ground against anyone who opposes your rights as given by the state or federal constitution.

This holds true regardless of the opposition's motive. In some cases the motive is a simple disregard for rights and in others it may be an ego problem when faced with the truth. In the Pine Bluffs affair I think it is just too hard for the local town government to put their egos down and do what is right and what they know is right.

I am glad AB is hanging in there as he is. There is absolutely nothing for the Pine Bluffs leadership to discuss. They simply need to recind the current unconstitutional town law. There is no reason that should take months and there is no good reason to leave a bad law on the books so future misunderstandings or misuse can appear again.
 

MamaLiberty

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I accept your criticism,Mama,

I wasn't trying to criticize, just acknowledge the frustration we all feel at times and point out that fighting among ourselves produces no good, only feeds our enemies.

Who is the real enemy? What is the goal? Where should our priorities be? Do we have time and energy to waste?

Each one must answer those questions for themselves.
 

Duncan Philp

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No confusion here in Pine Bluffs, anyone can carry openly and Bouchard was way out of line and so are you rpyne. You don't even live here rpyne and I do. State law allows the open carry of gun in Wyoming. The confusion lies with the issue of 'home rule', but no town or city can enact an ordinance that would violate the state constitution.

Puppet? The TRT has been around longer than WYGO has.

http://www.wyomingtrt.com/

http://www.trtnational.com/

Who am I? I'm not a puppet of anyoneor any government. I live 24 miles east of Pine Bluffs and have no real attachment to the town. I don't work in PB and I do very little business there. The town has a population of ,1,500 and is located on I-80 on the Nebraska, Wyoming border.

This is who I am.

Pro-gun protester wins lawsuit

Cops ticketed driver en route to home of Columbine victim


A self-described "political agitator" who was cited for several traffic violations as he prepared to protest outside the home of a Columbine victim won a $20,000 settlement from two sheriff's deputies in a civil-rights lawsuit. Duncan D. Philp, 45, accused Jefferson County sheriff's deputies Kirk Beaulieu and Donald Estep of violating his constitutional rights protecting him from unreasonable search and seizure and guaranteeing him due process.


Philp's attorney, Vincent Todd, also alleged that Beaulieu and Estep pulled Philp over, detained him and ticketed him as part of a concerted effort to deny him and other protesters their First Amendment rights to free speech and assembly. "In my experience, it's a fairly large settlement for something that started as a traffic ticket for someone that wasn't actually jailed," Todd said Wednesday afternoon as he prepared to pick up a $20,000 check from Jefferson County authorities.
Assistant Jefferson County Attorney Patricia Gilbert said officials decided to settle the lawsuit for "a variety of reasons." "We don't admit these deputies did anything wrong," she said.


Estep said he could not comment until he had spoken with sheriff's administrators.
Beaulieu defended his handling of the situation. "I saw what I believe to be a traffic violation and I acted upon it," he said Wednesday evening. "The judge didn't agree."
Beaulieu said he does not believe he violated Philp's rights.
"He still was able to do what he set out to do that night," he said.
Philp, who has a New Mexico driver's license and a Fort Collins post office box, says he's a resident of Wyoming. He could not be reached Wednesday.
The lawsuit stemmed from a protest last Dec. 14 outside the home of Tom Mauser, whose son, Daniel, was murdered in the Columbine library in the April 20, 1999, killings.


Tom Mauser joined SAFE Colorado after his son's killing and championed a law requiring background checks at gun shows and called for measures imposing requirements on the storage of weapons.

On the day of the protest, members of a group calling itself the Tyranny Response Team planned to gather outside Mauser's home and rally for the Second Amendment.
The protesters gathered in a parking lot in the 7500 block of South Pierce Street and planned to march to Mauser's nearby home.


Shortly before the protest was to begin, according to the lawsuit, Philp decided to drive to Mauser's neighborhood and make sure some demonstrators hadn't already gone there. As he pulled out of a shopping center parking lot onto Pierce Street, Beaulieu followed and pulled Philp over a short time later. The deputy alleged that Philp hadn't used his turn signal when he pulled out of the parking lot, which is on private property.


Beaulieu, who was later joined by Estep, wrote Philp a ticket for making an improper left turn, driving without insurance, driving without a seat belt and driving without a valid license.


Philp did show the officers a New Mexico driver's license, according to court documents. However, Estep believed that Philp had lived in Colorado for more than 30 days, meaning that he needed a Colorado driver's license.


Philp and his attorney filed a motion in Jefferson County Court alleging that the traffic stop and everything that followed was illegal. Their argument: that state law did not require the use of a turn signal on private property, and, consequently, Beaulieu did not have probable cause and could not legally stop Philp.


"The problem here was that the sheriff's deputies were basically clueless," Todd said. "They never bothered to read the statutes under which they made their stop and arrest. They didn't apply."


On Feb. 8, Judge Charles T. Hoppin granted Philp's motion to suppress the traffic stop and any evidence gathered from it. On Feb. 25, prosecutors dropped all the charges against him.


After that, Philp filed suit against the two deputies in federal court.
On Sept. 24, Jefferson County authorities agreed to settle it for $20,000.
Although the suit had named only the deputies, Jefferson County taxpayers will foot the bill for the settlement.


Part of the lawsuit alleged that the traffic stop was part of a concerted effort by sheriff's deputies to "chill" the First Amendment rights of the protesters.
"I don't think there's any question about that," Todd said.
 

Duncan Philp

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http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Jun-23-Sun-2002/opinion/18975535.html

"Protesting a Denver ordinance against bearing arms, business owner and Libertarian U.S. Senate candidate Rick Stanley late last year strapped on a hip holster bearing a .380 Beretta (fellow protester Duncan Philp chose a shoulder rig) during a Dec. 15 rally celebrating the 210th anniversary of the Bill of Rights."

"He'd advertised what he was going to do and invited Denver police to come get him. They did. He was peacefully arrested by 18 officers, and brought to trial on May 15 in the municipal court of Judge Robert L. Patterson."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wore a gun on my hip at the Pine Bluffs town hall meeting this past Monday night on April 11th and the town cop Yeomans was standingat the back of the meeting room when I was wearing my side arm, a Springfiled .45 ACP. I was not arrested nor was I even threatened with arrest for doing so. You can verify this by checking out the latest Pine Bluffs Post on line. You can alsocall and ask Mayor Anderson or councilman Shain.

The TRT is a no BS pro-Bill of Rights organization and unlike RMGO we never ask anyone for dues. We are not professional lobbiest who live off of membership dues. The TRT is a grass roots organization that has been around since 2000. We are a closely aligned with the Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

Iam a graduate of CSU with a BA in polsci/history and a certficate in criminal justice. I also have an AOS from the Colorado School of Trades, which is listed in Brownells as a gunsmithing school located in Lakewood, Colorado. I spent four years in the US Coast Guard and was the boats armorer for a CG patrol boat.

Puppet? Any questions?
 
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