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Comment on Grapeshot words of wisdom. (opencarry of AR right after SandyHook

boyscout399

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May 23, 2008
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Yes, but you're not exercising them smartly. I'm not a fan of OC'ing long guns simply because the general public barely seems to be able to handle handguns. An AR is just adding shock value to open carrying, which is counter productive. That being said, I respect a persons right to carry whatever they like (legally).



There are MANY people who think open carrying a handgun is not "exercising them smartly" and think you should always conceal it. Reference the 12 times I've been detained by police while OCing a handgun. Reference the MANY ballistics reports showing that a handgun is not a very effective self defense tool due to it's lack of power. Reference the reports by just about all defensive firearms instructors that universally agree that ANY long gun is better than ANY pistol in a gunfight. The ONLY reason why we carry pistols instead of long guns is due to the size and weight restrictions we place on ourselves for our chosen defensive tool. If someone is more concerned about their protection, and less concerned about size and weight, then the best defensive tool is a long gun, and the best defensive long gun in most situations is a high capacity semi automatic intermediate caliber rifle.

To be completely honest, when I carry a firearm, I don't choose what I carry based on whether I think the general public will accept me. The general public accepting me is not my concern. Carrying a firearm isn't about being liked. If you're carrying purely for political reasons, then you need to rethink whether you should be carrying at all. I carry for my defense. I choose open carry because my research has led me to believe that open carry is better than concealed carry for executing the task of defense. The only reason I don't carry a rifle is because it's too damn big and heavy, and because my choice to be a member of this forum leads me to want to follow this forum's rules.

Now, let's discuss how someone OCing an AR might affect how the public views us as handgun carriers. I would argue that it might make them LESS upset with handgun carry. ie. "well at least he's not carrying a big scary assault rifle like that crazy guy I saw last week." It's the same principle that the progressive's use against us. They propose outlandish and far reaching legislation, then when we complain, they take a smaller incremental step instead, and we think we won, when in reality, we still lost.
 

boyscout399

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So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

data from 2009 but it's not very different year to year. 11,493 homicides by firearm. Generally there are about 30,000 firearm deaths per year. Generally about half are suicides. Generally about 500 are accidental. Generally about 12,000 are homicides.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
That gives me an idea.

Lets say 12K are murdered, total. All deserved the right to defend themselves.

Add in all the aggravated assaults that resulted in grave bodily injury.

And, all the rapes.

And, where legal to defend with lethal force, all the arsons.

That adds up to a lota people who deserved an opportunity to defend themselves.
 

boyscout399

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Lyman, Maine
That gives me an idea.

Lets say 12K are murdered, total. All deserved the right to defend themselves.

Add in all the aggravated assaults that resulted in grave bodily injury.

And, all the rapes.

And, where legal to defend with lethal force, all the arsons.

That adds up to a lota people who deserved an opportunity to defend themselves.
From my link above 16,799 were murdered. That puts the US at rank 15 for murders per capita. Use that stat when people tell you that America is the most violent country.

And yeah, definitely does add up to a lot of people who deserved the right to protect themselves. Also, if you could find stats for it, add in all the people that DID defend themselves with firearms that would have died if they didn't have a firearm.

More data here from the UN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

That's from 2012 and ranks the US at 4.8 homicides per 100,000 which puts us at rank 103 for intentional homicides per 100,000. Granted most of those ahead of us are 3rd world African and South American countries, or tiny countries with very small populations that could fluctuate greatly.
 
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1245A Defender

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north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

So maybe I can agree with yur basic premis,,, BUT
Im pretty sure 12,000 people are NOT murdered with guns yearly.... maybe 3,000.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

data from 2009 but it's not very different year to year. 11,493 homicides by firearm. Generally there are about 30,000 firearm deaths per year. Generally about half are suicides. Generally about 500 are accidental. Generally about 12,000 are homicides.
Since we have been off topic for 6 posts, I wont feel bad about this post.

As all Murders are homicides,,, not All homicides are murders,,, and my post questioned the number of Murders, not homicides.

Of the 12,000 homicides,,,
many were by police stopping bad guys,,, Birking and such.
many were home invasion self defense,
many were were rape self defense,
many were assault and battery self defense,
many were strong arm robery self defense,
and how many other examples of justifiable homicides, by law abiding citizens could be included in this 12,000 homicides?

This leaves actuall Murders..
This brings me to a delicate splitting of the numbers,
the difference between,,, how shall I say,,, regular, old fashioned, everyday Murders.
and Drug driven, gangland, turfwar, Murder.
I think gangs murder much more often than, regular,old fashioned,everyday Murder,
only becuse the drug war has made their criminality sooo profitable!

So to the share of the 12,000 homicides that are actully Murders, and that is still a Big number
I would like to think of the gangland Murders as something else, something that can be
in a differant catagory entirely,,, Assinations!
Stop the war on drugs, take the insane profits away, remove the motivation for gangland Assinations,
reduce the number of Murders by more than half,
improve community safety, security, and health.
 

boyscout399

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Lyman, Maine
Since we have been off topic for 6 posts, I wont feel bad about this post.

As all Murders are homicides,,, not All homicides are murders,,, and my post questioned the number of Murders, not homicides.

Of the 12,000 homicides,,,
many were by police stopping bad guys,,, Birking and such.
many were home invasion self defense,
many were were rape self defense,
many were assault and battery self defense,
many were strong arm robery self defense,
and how many other examples of justifiable homicides, by law abiding citizens could be included in this 12,000 homicides?

This leaves actuall Murders..
This brings me to a delicate splitting of the numbers,
the difference between,,, how shall I say,,, regular, old fashioned, everyday Murders.
and Drug driven, gangland, turfwar, Murder.
I think gangs murder much more often than, regular,old fashioned,everyday Murder,
only becuse the drug war has made their criminality sooo profitable!

So to the share of the 12,000 homicides that are actully Murders, and that is still a Big number
I would like to think of the gangland Murders as something else, something that can be
in a differant catagory entirely,,, Assinations!
Stop the war on drugs, take the insane profits away, remove the motivation for gangland Assinations,
reduce the number of Murders by more than half,
improve community safety, security, and health.
The UN link I posted defined Intentional homicide as "unlawful death purposely inflicted by a person on another person"

Is assassination not murder? of course it is.

So the CDC put the homicide rate at 5.5 per 100,000 and the UN put it at 4.8 per 100,000. Assuming both are correct numbers and the CDC is including self defense homicides that puts self defense homicide at 0.7 per 100,000
 

jonjon_jon

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
216
Location
Manchester Maine
Tee shirt idea

I'd like to see someone who deals in tee shirts, have some printed up with a open carry gun on front saying now you see it and concealed carry on the back with shirt saying now you don't, do you feel safer! It would help educate the public how stupid the debate is.
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
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Location
Valhalla
I'd like to see someone who deals in tee shirts, have some printed up with a open carry gun on front saying now you see it and concealed carry on the back with shirt saying now you don't, do you feel safer! It would help educate the public how stupid the debate is.
That is an idea with great merit.
 

Hozed

New member
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Maine
Considering that 12000 people are murdered with firearms yearly, that averages 33 people per day murdered. When is the "proper timing" to exercise a right? I'd say that right after a tragedy is the perfect time to exercise your right to carry in whatever form because that's the most likely time to encounter a copycat murderer.
Perfect time? Guess you were wrong... There are very few people happy about it, and it put a black eye on open carry in Maine.

Westboro baptist church has the right to protest the funerals of dead american heros. Is that tasteful? Are they doing the first amendment a disservice by not doing it? No. They are doing nothing but ******* people off.

Had he of done this now, or in a few weeks, it wouldnt have gotten nearly the reaction. As soon as some of you die hard gun owners realize that our rights are actually in danger, and dont start thinking before doing, we will lose them.
 
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Grapeshot

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Perfect time? Guess you were wrong... There are very few people happy about it, and it put a black eye on open carry in Maine.

Westboro baptist church has the right to protest the funerals of dead american heros. Is that tasteful? Are they doing the first amendment a disservice by not doing it? No. They are doing nothing but ******* people off.

Had he of done this now, or in a few weeks, it wouldnt have gotten nearly the reaction. As soon as some of you die hard gun owners realize that our rights are actually in danger, and dont start thinking before doing, we will lose them.
No comparison - straw man argument.

It would be a black eye, cowardliness to let the falsehoods and misapplications remain unchallenged.

Millions of guns did NOT kill anyone today, yesterday or the day before.

The devastation was created by the condition of being defenseless - no one there to STOP the aggressor.

Westboro is foul tasting, Sandy Hook and the like is an affront to LAC and our way of life. Do not even mention them in the same breath.

No more Kool-Aid!!!!
 

Hozed

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May 9, 2011
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Maine
Actually, its a perfect comparison. Its someone using their rights to throw them in the face of others in a insensitive manner.
 

Grapeshot

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Actually, its a perfect comparison. Its someone using their rights to throw them in the face of others in a insensitive manner.
Still wrong.

Westboro is insensitive.......actually they're not. They know exactly what they are doing and it is all business, for profit, with them.

Wanting, demanding that our children be protected by effective means is not insensitive. I care enough that I would lay down my life for my grand kids and any of their friends.

You insult me personally by even suggesting that I am insensitive - know that I am serious.

Now is the time to stand strong and advance the right to live......not to cringe and hide behind the skirts of weak sisters with the same friutless, tired reasoning that allowed this to happen in the first place.
 

boyscout399

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Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
905
Location
Lyman, Maine
Perfect time? Guess you were wrong... There are very few people happy about it, and it put a black eye on open carry in Maine.

Westboro baptist church has the right to protest the funerals of dead american heros. Is that tasteful? Are they doing the first amendment a disservice by not doing it? No. They are doing nothing but ******* people off.

Had he of done this now, or in a few weeks, it wouldnt have gotten nearly the reaction. As soon as some of you die hard gun owners realize that our rights are actually in danger, and dont start thinking before doing, we will lose them.
If you think it wouldn't have gotten the same reaction now as it did on Christmas eve, then you're fooling yourself. No matter when it would have happened, it would have gotten the EXACT same press and would have the EXACT same public fall out. I'll pose you a very real question. If you were involved in a gunfight, would you rather have a pistol, or an AR? If you answer that you'd rather have a pistol, then you need to spend some time looking at real life shooting reports which illustrate how ineffective a handgun bullet is on the human body. If you answer that you'd rather have an AR, then how can you criticize someone for having one?
 

boyscout399

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May 23, 2008
Messages
905
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Lyman, Maine
Actually, its a perfect comparison. Its someone using their rights to throw them in the face of others in a insensitive manner.
Again, I contend, if you're not allowed to exercise your rights because it might offend someone, then does the right to do it exist?

Do you have free speech if you're not allowed to say anything offensive?

Do you have freedom of religion if you're only allowed to join churches that aren't offensive to anyone else?

Do you have freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures if refusing such a search is vilified and unacceptable?

Do you have the right to a council if asking for council is treated as evidence that you must be guilty?
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation
The devil is in the details. And, stats lie.....without more stats AND proper context.

Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms ..... Number of: (Did not cite the under/over ages, numbers not significant.)

All ages: 11,493
15–24 years: 4,051
25–34 years: 3,300
35–44 years: 1,869
45–54 years: 1,152

Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms ..... Death Rate (per 100,000): (Did not cite the under/over ages, numbers not significant.)

All ages: 3.7
15–24 years: 9.4
25–34 years: 7.9
35–44 years: 4.5
45–54 years: 2.6

Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms ..... By race and sex

All races: Both sexes - 11,493; Male - 9,615; Female - 1,878
White: Both sexes - 4,950; Male - 3,786; Female - 1,164
Black: Both sexes - 6,216; Male - 5,574; Female - 642
American Indian/Alaska Native: Both sexes - 112; Male - 91; Female - 21
Asian or Pacific Islander: Both sexes - 215; Male - 164; Female - 51

And no, I did not include more stats as I perhaps should have. Do I need too?

Whenever another citizen uses "sensitivity" as the foundation of their argument to "judge" their fellow citizen's lawful behavior; the judge is bordering anti-liberty behaviors himself.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Archibald Stuart, December 23, 1791
 
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