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CNN Analyst Suggests Women Can’t Carry Guns Because They Wear Skirts, Dresses

Grapeshot

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--snipped-- The last thing we want is for armed teachers to be running around with "Shoot Me!" hats, badges, jackets, or other devices recognizable to a mass shooter.
Where and when has this happened, other than in people's imagination? Do you have a cite?
Note that every instance reported over the years has proven false, not truthful as reported.

Therefore IMHO, it has been confirmed repeatedly that OCing a handgun does not make one a primary target for the bad guy. So why would anyone logically think that these things would contribute any differently? Military and law enforcement excepted.

Bottom line though is let them carry in some manner.
 

357SigFan

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Therefore IMHO, it has been confirmed repeatedly that OCing a handgun does not make one a primary target for the bad guy. So why would anyone logically think that these things would contribute any differently? Military and law enforcement excepted.
Technically, that may be true of general OC, but a person with solid intent to kill such as these 'mass shooters' very possibly would target those that would try to stop them first (OTOH, they might actually be psycho pansies and would never even try it if they knew it was likely they'd be stopped - it's hard to say which way it would go).

But more to the point, a number of years ago, I think it's around 10 now, there was a shooting here in Kirkwood, which is a bit west of St Louis. The perp first shot an armed uniformed police officer point blank in the head in the parking lot just outside City hall, and he then proceeded inside, where the first person he killed was the armed uniformed police officer 'standing guard' in the city hall meeting chamber. He then proceeded to shoot the then defenseless people in the room. So the idea that Open Carrying does not/will not/can not make you a bigger target and possibly the first to be killed in a shooting situation is a fallacy. It does not ALWAYS make you that bigger/primary target, and I'm sure there are or have been situations where the knowledge of an armed individual being present, LEO or otherwise, stopped a crime from even being attempted, but it certainly CAN make you a bigger/primary target.
 

Grapeshot

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Where and when has this happened, other than in people's imagination? Do you have a cite?
Note that every instance reported over the years has proven false, not truthful as reported.

Therefore IMHO, it has been confirmed repeatedly that OCing a handgun does not make one a primary target for the bad guy. So why would anyone logically think that these things would contribute any differently? Military and law enforcement excepted.

Bottom line though is let them carry in some manner.
Technically, that may be true of general OC, but a person with solid intent to kill such as these 'mass shooters' very possibly would target those that would try to stop them first (OTOH, they might actually be psycho pansies and would never even try it if they knew it was likely they'd be stopped - it's hard to say which way it would go).

But more to the point, a number of years ago, I think it's around 10 now, there was a shooting here in Kirkwood, which is a bit west of St Louis. The perp first shot an armed uniformed police officer point blank in the head in the parking lot just outside City hall, and he then proceeded inside, where the first person he killed was the armed uniformed police officer 'standing guard' in the city hall meeting chamber. He then proceeded to shoot the then defenseless people in the room. So the idea that Open Carrying does not/will not/can not make you a bigger target and possibly the first to be killed in a shooting situation is a fallacy. It does not ALWAYS make you that bigger/primary target, and I'm sure there are or have been situations where the knowledge of an armed individual being present, LEO or otherwise, stopped a crime from even being attempted, but it certainly CAN make you a bigger/primary target.
Never said it was not possible - I asked for a cite.

Reread as uniformed officers and military are specifically excluded. The OCer will be the first one shot is a total anti OC mantra and without merit.
 

WalkingWolf

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It really is very simple, if one fears/dislikes OC don't do it. I don't give a damn what your reasons are, keep them to yourself. As to my carry~~just leave me alone, and mind your own business.
 

color of law

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Technically, that may be true of general OC, but a person with solid intent to kill such as these 'mass shooters' very possibly would target those that would try to stop them first (OTOH, they might actually be psycho pansies and would never even try it if they knew it was likely they'd be stopped - it's hard to say which way it would go).

But more to the point, a number of years ago, I think it's around 10 now, there was a shooting here in Kirkwood, which is a bit west of St Louis. The perp first shot an armed uniformed police officer point blank in the head in the parking lot just outside City hall, and he then proceeded inside, where the first person he killed was the armed uniformed police officer 'standing guard' in the city hall meeting chamber. He then proceeded to shoot the then defenseless people in the room. So the idea that Open Carrying does not/will not/can not make you a bigger target and possibly the first to be killed in a shooting situation is a fallacy. It does not ALWAYS make you that bigger/primary target, and I'm sure there are or have been situations where the knowledge of an armed individual being present, LEO or otherwise, stopped a crime from even being attempted, but it certainly CAN make you a bigger/primary target.
He shot uniformed police officers because uniformed police officers are PRESUMED to be armed. Citizens are NOT presumed to be armed. Your thinking is flawed.

I have been in to many situations with citizens and police officers where none of them ever even noticed a firearm on my side.
 

solus

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Technically, that may be true of general OC, but a person with solid intent to kill such as these 'mass shooters' very possibly would target those that would try to stop them first (OTOH, they might actually be psycho pansies and would never even try it if they knew it was likely they'd be stopped - it's hard to say which way it would go).

But more to the point, a number of years ago, I think it's around 10 now, there was a shooting here in Kirkwood, which is a bit west of St Louis. The perp first shot an armed uniformed police officer point blank in the head in the parking lot just outside City hall, and he then proceeded inside, where the first person he killed was the armed uniformed police officer 'standing guard' in the city hall meeting chamber. He then proceeded to shoot the then defenseless people in the room. So the idea that Open Carrying does not/will not/can not make you a bigger target and possibly the first to be killed in a shooting situation is a fallacy. It does not ALWAYS make you that bigger/primary target, and I'm sure there are or have been situations where the knowledge of an armed individual being present, LEO or otherwise, stopped a crime from even being attempted, but it certainly CAN make you a bigger/primary target.
in the feb 7 2008 situation you mentioned, one councilperson knew the shooter was about to open fire at him so he grabbed chairs and threw them at the shooter, which allowed him an opportunity to run and escape.

this concept of aggression towards the shooter goes against the current modality espoused in school/campus shooting of cowering in place.

your analogy is to the OCDO being a target is a false as the situations and circumstances are sufficiently different to reach the proper conclusion.
 

OC for ME

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The Kirkwood shooter methodically planned his attack. Remove immediate threats that would prevent him from carrying out his planned assassinations. Cops are obvious targets, citizen OCers are not.
 

color of law

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The Kirkwood shooter methodically planned his attack. Remove immediate threats that would prevent him from carrying out his planned assassinations. Cops are obvious targets, citizen OCers are not.
We really don't want the armed citizen to be figured into the bad guy's equation.
 
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357SigFan

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The Kirkwood shooter methodically planned his attack. Remove immediate threats that would prevent him from carrying out his planned assassinations. Cops are obvious targets, citizen OCers are not.
Can you say, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that had the uniformed officers not been present, but instead, average citizens with open carried firearms, he would not have still targeted those armed individuals first? The answer is, no, you can't. Frankly, to exclude uniformed police officers is flawed thinking, and arguably doing the same thing the antis do with numbers and 'adjusting' them to fit your narrative. A person openly carrying a firearm is a person open carrying a firearm - Uniformed LEO or not.

But I agree 100% with WakingWolf in post 24 - We should all be free to carry however we see fit. If you don't like it? Too bad. Personally, I really don't have a preference, but there are times where CC is the better option, and there are times where OC would be preferred.
 
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OC for ME

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Can you say, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that had the uniformed officers not been present, but instead, average citizens with open carried firearms, he would not have still targeted those armed individuals first? The answer is, no, you can't. Frankly, to exclude uniformed police officers is flawed thinking, and arguably doing the same thing the antis do with numbers and 'adjusting' them to fit your narrative. A person openly carrying a firearm is a person open carrying a firearm - Uniformed LEO or not.

...
What does a citizen OCer look like? Is there a specific attire that identifies that citizen as a OCer? Just as a cop uniform identifies a cop.
The casualties included two council members, the public works director, two police officers, and the mayor, who died seven months later. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/kirkwood-city-hall-shooting-years-after-tragedy-a-community-reflects/article_895f3748-b575-59bb-b02a-719dc551a4d4.html
In one of the photos in the linked article a cop is not in uniform and seemingly seated in a advantageous location to interdict a armed intruder if required. Would a citizen OCer be more identifiable than that cop? Does that cop's attire indicate that he is armed? Lacking the badge and radio he would appear to be a fella watching politicians being politicians. If you have any facts to substantiate your claim that citizen OCers would have been/would be targeted as were/would uniformed cops lets have them.
 

solus

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What does a citizen OCer look like? Is there a specific attire that identifies that citizen as a OCer? snipp
OC for ME, to protect the innocent i have blanked out their faces :shocker:

carry types.png

slingshot notwithstanding.
 

HP995

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Is there a specific attire that identifies that citizen as a OCer?
ID'd by the firearm itself, PRIOR to the event. For a school shooting, the perp is fairly likely to be familiar with the people involved and some of their habits. Very different from a situation with the perp targeting strangers. What happens next is anyone's guess.

OC for ME, to protect the innocent i have blanked out their faces
That's no fair, everyone recognizes my silhouette!
 

OC for ME

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ID'd by the firearm itself, PRIOR to the event. For a school shooting, the perp is fairly likely to be familiar with the people involved and some of their habits. Very different from a situation with the perp targeting strangers. What happens next is anyone's guess. ...
Do you have x-ray vision? In the photo from the linked article of the cop sitting next to the wall, and if he is strong side right, how would you see a OC'd handgun? If a citizen is sitting anywhere in a council chamber how would you see a OC'd handgun. Unless you consider not seeing the OC'd handgun due to my sitting as CCing...just as some states consider OCing a handgun in a vehicle as CCing.
 

color of law

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Can you say, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that had the uniformed officers not been present, but instead, average citizens with open carried firearms, he would not have still targeted those armed individuals first? The answer is, no, you can't. Frankly, to exclude uniformed police officers is flawed thinking, and arguably doing the same thing the antis do with numbers and 'adjusting' them to fit your narrative. A person openly carrying a firearm is a person open carrying a firearm - Uniformed LEO or not.........
Yes, absolutely. The BG is there to carryout his/her mission. Now, if his/her mission is to attack open carriers, then they will be the target. But, like stated above what does an open carrier look like? An open carrier is easy to spot. It is that tall short fat skinny guy, you know, the bald guy with a full head of hair, the one with two eyes, a mouth and nose. That's the guy.
 

Grapeshot

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Yes, absolutely. The BG is there to carryout his/her mission. Now, if his/her mission is to attack open carriers, then they will be the target. But, like stated above what does an open carrier look like? An open carrier is easy to spot. It is that tall short fat skinny guy, you know, the bald guy with a full head of hair, the one with two eyes, a mouth and nose. That's the guy.
He's the one w/o a target on his back, but a mission on his mind - to do what he can to protect himself and his loved ones from harm.

He is very effective at that.
 

WalkingWolf

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The difference between LEO's OCing, and the LAC is that police officers are actively searching out criminals. That changes the dynamic, since private citizens do not make traffic stops, serve warrants. Most times a criminal will wait to till the cop leaves to commit a crime. All the instances that I am aware of a police officer having his gun taken was during some type of stop. As far as targeting officers that is people who hold a grudge, if someone holds a grudge against you it will not matter whether you OC, CC, or go unarmed. Though most DV victims who are targeted are unarmed, that would indicate that carrying does make a difference to those who wish to do domestic violence.
 

HP995

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Do you have x-ray vision? In the photo from the linked article of the cop sitting next to the wall, and if he is strong side right, how would you see a OC'd handgun? If a citizen is sitting anywhere in a council chamber how would you see a OC'd handgun.
My own x-ray vision capabilities are under wraps, can't confirm or deny, I'll just say that I can see pretty well! :eek:

But I emphasized prior to the event. If Mr. Jenkins the math teacher and Ms. Douglas the vice principal make it a regular habit to OC, students and other staff will see the holstered firearm on different days and from different angles. Students will also talk or joke about it sometimes over lunch. Who OC's and where they are most often located would be a known fact to many students and staff, so if one of them becomes a school shooter, that information is available. What the shooter does with that info (seek, avoid, ignore, pick a different target, execute plan on Mr. Smith's day off) is anyone's guess.
 
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