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Butler County metroparks - No OC allowed per park rules

davidmcbeth

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Alas, all recommendations followed so far = no positive result

Just trying to offer ideas.

People here hate ideas I guess.

Not providing legal advice, just providing my experience in dealing successfully with the .govs.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Carry on !
 

color of law

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I received this at 12:11 P.M. The way this reads we are in for another 4 1/2 years.

Dear Color of Law,

I was forwarded your email below for response.

First, I would like to thank you for reaching out to MetroParks with your continued concern regarding the apparent conflict of language between MetroParks Rules and Regulations relative to the open carry provisions and the language of state law. Also, thank you for giving MetroParks the opportunity to respond to your follow-up.

Secondly, I apologize that Chief Bower and Mr. Granville were otherwise committed and not available to return your call to date. While I am by no means the subject matter expert on this topic, I wanted to be sure that you knew that your concerns were not being ignored and that we had received your communication.

While I understand your frustration relative to the amount of time it has taken, I am aware that a rewrite of MetroParks public safety operating policies and park rules is still underway. Additionally, I can assure you that any revisions made to our current policies and procedures will of course be in compliance with state law. Relative to any park signage, there is not any MetroParks signage that is currently in conflict with state law, that we are aware of; however, all signage will be reviewed for compliance with any updated rules and regulations as warranted. I apologize that I do not currently know the exact date and time in which MetroParks public safety operating policies and park rules and regulations will be complete, but have forwarded your communication to those responsible for this effort.

I know that this answer may not be precisely what you were hoping to hear, but I did want to be sure that you knew MetroParks felt that it was important to acknowledge your communication and respond.

Please feel free to reach out with any further questions that you might have for me. I will be out of the office until Monday, Oct. 3, 2016 and will have limited access to emails.

Respectfully,

Kelly J. Barkley
Sr. Manager of Community Relations
MetroParks of Butler County
(O) 513.867.5835 (F) 513.867.5954
kbarkley@yourmetroparks.net
 

color of law

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Then at 6:08 P.M. I received this. I will be replying.


Dear Color of Law:

Although it was our intent to review and up-date our complete MetroParks Rules and Regulations at one time that process has taken far too long. We will remove section 1545.09 5b from the Rules and Regulations posted on-line as soon as possible and follow it up with official action of the Board of Park Commissioners at its October meeting to officially amend that section removing the phrases emphasized in the text shown below. A record of this action will be available on-line for your review.

“1545.09 5b No person, except a Park Ranger, another law enforcement officer, a person within a designated hunting area, a person within a Board designated target range, or a person specifically authorized in writing by the Executive Director or his or her designee shall carry or possess a firearm of any description, air rifle, slingshot, bow, crossbow, rocket, missile throwing device, or hunting knife within a Park unless said devise is a handgun and said person possess a valid Ohio Concealed Carry Permit.

Since the Ohio Revised Code was amended impacting this park rule no one has ever been cited by any our law enforcement officers for violating 1545.09 5b in respect to the carrying of firearms. As to your other point, I am aware of no signage in the MetroParks that conflicts with the Ohio Revised Code as presently enacted in regard to the legal carrying firearms. But in the course of a review if we discover any they will be removed and/or alter so as to be responsive to current State law.

Thank you for bring this matter to my attention. I share your frustration that this issue has not yet been dealt with.

Jonathan R. Granville
Executive Director
MetroParks of Butler County
2051 Timberman Road
Hamilton, OH 45013
 

davidmcbeth

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OMG what a chit-train this guy is hauling LOL....

Offer to send him stickers to add (electronic ones too) to their written policies....

Sounds like he says all is well and you can ignore the current rules that conflict...ROFL at that one; you know what will likely happen.

Good luck with this regime.
 

Suckerspawn

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Jan 21, 2013
Messages
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Location
Dayton, Piqua, Ohio
Color Of Law,

Are you interested at taking a swing at the City of Dayton? I've tried for two years to get them to change their municipal code Section 138.02, 138.11 and 138.25
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
Hmmm..ask to see the records of all their efforts in this matter ... you'll get NONE ... LOL

Solve issue at state level, to mandate that local .govs change upon notice by a citizen and if not, a civil penalty of 40K would be assessed , going to the citizen who brought it up?
 

ps1mhd

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Apr 8, 2012
Messages
261
Location
sparta ky
Sounds like we need to have a cookout in one of their parks.
Maybe next to a Ranger station:banana:

Mike D
 

color of law

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Here is my response to Mr. Granville....


Dear Mr. Granville,

Your last sentence of your Email (I share your frustration that this issue has not yet been dealt with.) is quite disturbing. Either you are trying to pass the buck by implicating the boards incompetence in their failings to take your advice, or could it be that you and the board lack respect for the law. Lets not forget that all of you took an oath of office to support the laws of Ohio. Lack of due diligence is unacceptable.

I see that section 1545.09 5b has been deleted from the Metro Park Rules showing an Adopted: May 13, 2008 date, but lacking any revision date or footnote indicating such change. I hope the altering of the park rules has been internally recorded should an open records request demand such official acts.

Section 1545.09 5b is not the only problem with the park rules.

Regarding posted signs on state government buildings; another park rule that is in violation of state law is: “1545.09 5a No person, except Park Rangers or other law enforcement officers, shall, within a Park building, carry or be possessed of firearms of any description or other dangerous ordinances, or any air rifle, sling*shot, missile throwing device, switchblade, hunting knife, dagger, or metal knuckles.”

First, R.C. 2923.1212 is a supplemental section of R.C. 2923.12. See “A Guidebook for Ohio Legislators,” page 67. http://www.lsc.ohio.gov/guidebook/guidebook15.pdf Second, R.C. 2923.1212 addresses state agencies or state government entities, not the citizens or a concealed carry licensee. In other words, posted signs on state government buildings only apply to the conceal carrying of firearms, not the open carrying of firearms.

Other than bars (R.C. 2923.121), schools (R.C. 2923.122), Courthouses (R.C. 2923.123), Jails and State run mental hospitals, Ohio law does not interfere with citizens' inalienable right, as protected by the Constitution, of the open carrying of firearms on public property open the public, outside under the sky or inside a building. Open carry is a right, not a privilege. Conceal carry of a firearm is a privilege in Ohio. See R.C. 9.68.

In State v. Shelton, 63 Ohio App. 3d 137 – Ohio: Court of Appeals 1989, the court stated: (The issue is: Did she have a privilege to enter the lobby of the sheriff's office? As a general rule, a person has the right to enter and be upon the public areas of public property. So we have to ask: May a county official revoke such a privilege when the official finds that person to be a nuisance? We think not.) In other words, it says you cannot be charged with trespass for just being in the open to the public area of a state building just because some government employee doesn't like you being there.

Open carry by itself does not support a charge of Disorderly Conduct, Inducing Panic or even Trespass.

We know a person may be prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon in a public building under R.C. 2923.126(9). So, what law says it's a crime to open carry in a state government building open to the public? We know it's not R.C. 2923.12 or R.C. 2923.1212. And in light of R.C. 9.68 I will bet that you will not find an Ohio statute saying otherwise.

Carrying firearms in your parks is not your only problem, I suggest you read Speet v. Schuette, 726 F.3d 867, 869 (6th Cir. 2013) relating to begging and soliciting, (The first issue is whether begging is a form of solicitation that the First Amendment protects. We hold that it is.).The Park Rules at 1545.09 7l (No person shall beg, hawk, peddle, or solicit within the Park without a special permit issued by the Executive Director.) and 1545.09 10c (No person shall beg or solicit any person for any purpose in the Park.) appear to be in violation of the First Amendment.

You and the board, as well as law enforcement have a duty to not violate peoples' rights. And law enforcement cannot claim ignorance of the law. See Northup v. City of Toledo Police Department, No. 14-4050 (6th Cir. May 14, 2015) (If it is appropriate to presume that citizens know the parameters of the criminal laws, it is surely appropriate to expect the same of law enforcement officers—at least with regard to unambiguous statutes. Heien v. North Carolina, 135 S. Ct. 530, 540 (2014).

It appears you and the board have a lot to get done before your October meeting.

Sincerely,

Color of Law
 

color of law

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Well here is their reply. Mr. Granville didn't respond even though my response was addressed to him.
My question is, what has legal counsel been doing for the last 4 1/2 years?


Dear Color of Law,

Thank you for sharing your concerns, MetroParks will be consulting our legal counsel.

Respectfully,

Kelly J. Barkley
Sr. Manager of Community Relations
MetroParks of Butler County
(O) 513.867.5835 (F) 513.867.5954
 

color of law

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It is apparently on the Agenda.


BOARD OF PARK COMMISSIONERS MEETING AGENDA
Tuesday, October 18, 2016
VII. New Business
a. MetroParks Rules and Regulations Revisions - Firearms Sections, Resolution to Approve
 

color of law

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I just received a copy of Resolution 81.16 amending the Butler County Metropark rules and regulations to which such rules are now in compliance with state law.

As gutshot has pointed out, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. A complaint is not usually enough to move or motivate a government actors to do anything.

These matters usually get solved the easy way versus the hard way (court action), but only because of persistence. And persistence is what it takes to get results. In other words, if one phone call or email gets positive results, you had a Miracle day.....
 

BB62

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I just received a copy of Resolution 81.16 amending the Butler County Metropark rules and regulations to which such rules are now in compliance with state law.

As gutshot has pointed out, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. A complaint is not usually enough to move or motivate a government actors to do anything.

These matters usually get solved the easy way versus the hard way (court action), but only because of persistence. And persistence is what it takes to get results. In other words, if one phone call or email gets positive results, you had a Miracle day.....
Color of Law = miracle worker :cool: :cool: ;)
 

color of law

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I believe the OP (OHIO) is "tbrew85" over on OFCC (Ohioans for Conceal Carry). He complained about Butler County Metroparks rules. I resolved the issue, yet not one word of thanks. I am not asking for praise. I could care less about praise. I posted my correspondence with the park board for the purpose of education. This is how it's done and how you can do it. Some day somebody will have to pick up the gauntlet.

I know that I'm despised on OFCC, but tbrew85 not acknowledging that the issue has been resolved over on OFCC is suspect. "OHIO" didn't complain about no results when posted 4 1/2 years ago on OFCC, nor did he follow-up with the park board. And the the rank and file of OFCC didn't even assist him, pitiful.

With all the knowledge shared OCDO you would think Ohioans would participate more on this forum. But, it is what it is.

I now step down from my soapbox.......
 

RikuNoganashi

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Color of Law, if we had ten people as dedicated and thorough as you over here in TN, I think we could already have TCA 39-17-1307 rewritten to be in compliance with the Constitution.
 

Brian D.

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Location
Cincy area, Ohio, USA

Yeah, you weren't kidding about "old"; that thread and another similar one about the Butler County Metroparks went back to 2012. They were buried and hadn't been updated in all that time. I seriously doubt they would have been dredged back to the surface for an update of any kind. But hey, for better or worse I just did so.
 
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