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Boy, 4, shoots babysitter for stepping on foot

PT111

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ijusam wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
ijusam wrote:

quote from article:

The boy, apparently angered that Beavers stepped on his foot, retrieved a shell from a drawer in a back bedroom, grabbed a 20-gauge single-shot shotgun from a closet and loaded the weapon, Ephlin said.

Your statement:

find it really hard to believe that at the point of the foot being stepped onand the wince from the pain the kid felt, that a 4 yr. old (boy or girl) decided someone needed to be killed..
I never implied a 4 yo understood the implications of shooting someone as opposed to hurting someone to get even.

when I was 5 a 10yo friend of my brother hurt me. I picked up a beebee gun (red ryder) with the intention of hurting him as I was physically unable to do so otherwise. I had no training other than watching my brother, but hit my target where I aimed (his backside). had it been a youth shotgun instead of a bee bee gun the boy could have been killed. After the welts on my backside subsided, we beganthe rest of my gun safety lessons.

anyone who been around children knows how vicious some of them can be. fortunately most can't inflict serious damage on others and are trained not to hit tommy when "he takes your toys". Unfortunately some lack the parenting that will correct these behaviours and we see the result of this in the news every day.

My point was that the mechanics are possible. Though the probability seems that the teens were the most likely suspects, I would be checking the boy for a bruise to his shoulder, fingers cut or bruised from the trigger guard, and GSR

Very few 4 year-old can grasp the concept of death but they know all about hurting someoneand revenge. When my daughter was 4 they had a bad time at day-care with one child that would pinch, bite or hit the others with anything he could pick-up.

If a child has seen that a gun can inflict pain they certainly would use it if available. If they had watched someone load it and shoot it they could easily repeat that action. I seriously doubt that this child has any concept of what death or murder really means but I can easily see them getting a gun to try to get back at someone. To say that they don't have the physical abilites is vastly underestimating them. When I was 22 months old I got in our car and cranked it up and drove it onto the woodpile in the back yard. My parents learned then not to leave the keys in it.
 

Hawkflyer

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PT111 wrote:
When I was 22 months old I got in our car and cranked it up and drove it onto the woodpile in the back yard. My parents learned then not to leave the keys in it.
I agree with you premise that a 4 year old could easily have done what was required here. I also agree that the child did not have to understand the consequences of this action, and most likely did not in this case. Especially with a single shot 20 gauge. Considering that the reports say it was a buckshot load, and two people were hit the implication is that he did not hit COM with his shot, and that is in line with what we might expect of a 4 year old "point" shooting a 20 gauge.

Strange you mention the car thing.

One of my most vivid memory's is getting in the family car (1954 Olds), releasing the brake and riding in it down the driveway, across the street and into the neighbors front hedge. I was about 2 1/2 at the time. I remember after that I could not get in the car when it was parked, as the doors were always locked.
 

Alexcabbie

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Although I haven't any kids (that I know of :uhoh:) I AM the eldest of five and so have some experience of kittle ones from a semi-adult point of view.

A few years ago two friends of mine had a baby girl, their first child. One day I hadn't seen them in a while and dropped by. She wasn't home, having gone to her friend's with the kid; but he was. He welcomed me into their home and I said: "wow! Rae is sure growing fast, huh?" He started to say "Yeah" but stopped in the middle of his first word and said, wait a sec, she isn't even here. How did you know??

I told him I noticed that every single shelf in the house that was less than 5 feet off the ground was completely empty, and that told me within about six inches how tall she had gotten.

The point is, most parents just instictively know that there are things, and sometimes that means EVERYTHING, that they should "KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN". It is nothing less than infuriating that these days parents - some of them - are so damned stupid that the Government has to tell them what ought to be plain common sense.

Yesterday I heard a clip of some State lawmaker decrying "youth obesity" and claiming that because of it "The current generation of kids is the first in history predicted to have a shorter lifespan than the last" and said that "when the parents of these kids realize this, they are going to be here in this Capitol demanding to know why Government did not do anything to stop it". :what:

HOW ABOUT TELLING YOUR LITTLE FATLING TO TAKE THE DAMN TOOTSIE ROLL OUTTA HIS PIEHOLE AND PUT DOWN THE GOD DAMN VIDEO GAME AND GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY??? DO YOU MEN TO TELL ME THAT PEOPLE HAVE BECOME THAT DEPENDENT ON GOVERNMENT??? IDIOTS!!!! IDIOTS!! IDIOTS!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Sorry about the tirade, folks. But we have people who rely on GPS for directions to such an extent that if the device tells them to take a right into a ditch, they just drive right into the ditch. Ive a feeling that 4-year-old's folks fall into that category.

As to the 4-year-old, in most states kids under age seven are deemed legally incapable of forming true malice as they cannot understand the consequenses of their actions, at least not to the degree needed to form intent to do serious harm. If you ask me there is ONE good thing about this story, and that is that it is so uncommon as to constitute national news. For now.
 

PT111

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I have raised 3 children to adulthood and my wife has taught first or second grade for 35 years. I also have a largen number of cousins and friends with small childrenso I have some experience with small children. A couple of things that I have learned in almost 60+ years is that never take anything from granted with children. The average 4 year old is perfectly capable of obtaining a single-shot gun from a closet, loading it and firing it. If you don't think they are capable then you must live the perfect life. Four year olds cannot be trusted to do what you tell them unless you have teh perfect child. Otherwise you are fooling yourself. A small child that is hurt will try to get even and find some way to do it. They also have no concept of what the consequenses of that action is, only that they have seen someone do it on TV or in video games. Very few have any concept of death. The concept most have is in the cartoons where Bugs Bunny gets squashed and then springs back up to be normal.

Even the most mild mannered child will lash out if pushed far enough or under the right circumstances. And they will act DIFFERENTLY when not around their parents. I always hear the parents say that "my child would never do that" and most of the time it is when their child is standing there in handcuffs being arrested for murder. Lots of times is is when the parents are called into the daycare principal's office. Parenting will go only so far.

Keep your guns out of reach of children. You can test them by leaving one around to see what they do but daggoneit you can't depend on them to always do it. Right before Christmas a first grader at my wife's schooltried to bringa pistol that he had taken from his father's closet and planned to shoot one of his classmates. His fourthgradebrother found out about it and told the bus driver before they got to school. This was a 6 year old, not a four year old. So far they haven't have any in the four year old classes to bring one.
 

Walleye

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This reminds me of when I took a sociology class (yeah yeah, laugh all you want :p) and the book delved into how the human mind develops through age.

Basically, anyone under the age of 10 is 'selfish': they cannot see things beyond their own perspective. If you ask them to describe and object as it looks from another individual's point of view, they will not understand the question. As a result, they tend to live from one moment to the next, due to being mentally incapable of understanding consequences beyond rudimentary forms. It takes a more instinctive form of training to get them to understand that - associations, such as getting spanked, for improper behavior.

At the same time, not everyone is the same, so the above situation may not always be true. But it does emphasize the importance of keeping an eye on your kids.
 

cccook

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PT111 wrote:
They also have no concept of what the consequenses of that action is, only that they have seen someone do it on TV or in video games. Very few have any concept of death.
I so agree. Watch any TV ad for an action series or movie. Count the times you see any character brandishing a gun, pointing a gun at someone, discharging a gun, advancing on someone with their finger on the trigger or otherwise threatening someone with a gun. Or watch an action series where dozens if not hundreds of rounds are are exchanged in a scene and no one gets hurt or killed. What else can kids learn from this?

These shows are created by the same liberal elites that decry the very irresponsible culture they are helping create. Then these same liberals want to create laws that are supposed to protect us from that culture. But I digress. Sorry about the rant...it just gets my goat.
 

cccook

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Hawkflyer wrote:
cccook wrote:
...SNIP..it just gets my goat.
You have a GOAT! That explains the handle.:lol:



Si, cabrito esta muy bien. Mmmm, delicioso.


And one should always CC while preparing it. You know... tactical advantage and all that.
 

deepdiver

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Walleye wrote:
Basically, anyone under the age of 10 is 'selfish': they cannot see things beyond their own perspective. If you ask them to describe and object as it looks from another individual's point of view, they will not understand the question.
snip
Sounds like you were reading about Piaget's moral development theory.
 

Mini14

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JoeSparky wrote:
Citizen wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
Citizen wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
SNIP I am not sure WHO to hold responsible here!
Warner Bros.and Hanna-Barbera. :)
They may have a legitimate defense in that neither the shotgun or the shell were provided or purchased from the ACME COMPANY!
I'll bet it was a subsidiary of Spacely Sprockets! :)
Just be on the lookout for any packages from "THE ACME TERRORIST SUPPLY COMPANY":what::what:
I'll bet it was one of Dr. Zin's spies taught the kid to do that:lol:
 

Mini14

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Mini14 wrote:
Thank Heaven the kid didn't have a Luger, he might have shot all those present; based upon what I've seen, it's a caseof .'monkey see, monkey do'.
The 4 year old kid that can pull the toggle to cock a Luger is waay out on the right hand tail of the capabilities distribution. Even less likely would be a modern Luger with grip safety.

I kept a new Luger loaded not cocked for my now 30 y.o. daughters life, depending on the toggle to frustrate adventures beyond training.
I was thinking the gun already left .'hot'; Flick off the safety and panic fire the magazine. Besides, it was in a poorer neighborhood, asurplus Luger would probably be likely than a Glock or HK handgun(s). The otherpossibility here would be people using rebuilt surplus guns, like an Ortgies or a BroomhandleMauser; you can still get parts for those through the mail order.
 

PT111

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cccook wrote:
These shows are created by the same liberal elites that decry the very irresponsible culture they are helping create. Then these same liberals want to create laws that are supposed to protect us from that culture. But I digress. Sorry about the rant...it just gets my goat.

AMEN...

The A-Team was the worst at it. 2,000 rounds fired, car flips over fire times and no one gets hurt, everyone walks away without a scratch and the BG's got to jail and the A-Team keeps running. But it is terrible to show anyone getting killed. What is a child supposed to learn from that? Show the person getting blown away and even a good guy getting killed. That is what happens in real life and children should see that it isn't always a happy ending.
 

Carnivore

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PT111 wrote:
cccook wrote:
These shows are created by the same liberal elites that decry the very irresponsible culture they are helping create. Then these same liberals want to create laws that are supposed to protect us from that culture. But I digress. Sorry about the rant...it just gets my goat.

AMEN...

The A-Team was the worst at it. 2,000 rounds fired, car flips over fire times and no one gets hurt, everyone walks away without a scratch and the BG's got to jail and the A-Team keeps running. But it is terrible to show anyone getting killed. What is a child supposed to learn from that? Show the person getting blown away and even a good guy getting killed. That is what happens in real life and children should see that it isn't always a happy ending.
PT111 with an attitude like that, before you know it sports team coaches will start cutting the lessor talented kids from the teams at the end of the tryouts, (like they used to in the olden days), and only the 1st and 2nd place teams will get trophys at the end of the playoffs, and then the whole politically correct world that has been built these last two decades will fall apart..:banghead:
 

Hawkflyer

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PT111 wrote:
cccook wrote:
These shows are created by the same liberal elites that decry the very irresponsible culture they are helping create. Then these same liberals want to create laws that are supposed to protect us from that culture. But I digress. Sorry about the rant...it just gets my goat.

AMEN...

The A-Team was the worst at it. 2,000 rounds fired, car flips over fire times and no one gets hurt, everyone walks away without a scratch and the BG's got to jail and the A-Team keeps running. But it is terrible to show anyone getting killed. What is a child supposed to learn from that? Show the person getting blown away and even a good guy getting killed. That is what happens in real life and children should see that it isn't always a happy ending.
This sounds as if you are advocating rewards based on Merritt. That is not how we do thing is this country any more. You have obviously been out of touch with public policy for quite some time.
 

RIAShooter

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Carnivore wrote:
Mini14 wrote:
Thank Heaven the kid didn't have a Luger, he might have shot all those present; based upon what I've seen, it's a caseof .'monkey see, monkey do'.

I agree, the kids needs major therapy; Jeffrey Dahmer's Dad allegedly influeced his son's conduct, wih Mayberry-style correction. We all know how that matter concluded.

As to the parents, they could have gotten a $10 surplus high school locker; with a $1.00 DG padlock. it would make a poor man's gun safe. They should lose custody of that kid, no excuses.

YEP, Mayberry type upbringing was just a fantasy, but then again Opie 's mishaps were just a tad bit under scale for some of the stunts I and fellas i grew up with pulled so they may have fit the story line.

I just find it really unbelievable that a 4 yr. old could manifest the type of anger that would initiate the mechanics and sequence of this type of retaliation..

-someone stepped on my foot

-gosh darn that really hurt

-no one apologized

-now everyones laughing

-my only other option is to go to the closet where I know the loaded shotgun is kept and retrieve it when no ones watching.

-operate the necessary functions to enable it to fire, and teach these folks a lesson.

-(GO AHEAD PUNK, MAKE MY DAY !!)

I still don't buy the story..

If you've ever held a 3yr oldbaby and it started reaching for your necklace, and you push his hand away and tell him No.

He begins to whine, he reaches for it again you say No, and push his hand away again, he begins to scream and flail his arms even in the direction of your face.

I'm telling you right now if that baby had the strength of an 18 yr old man, he would beat you down, take your necklace and step over your bloody body and walk out the door.

We don't have to teach kids, anger, or selfishness, these are all traits we all our born with. So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a four year old's temper
 

Alexcabbie

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Wow I had to go to the OP and work my way back. Okay. For all the talk of "innocent little ones"; the only thing they are innocent of is the knowledge that the entire world does NOT in fact revolve around them. We all of us are NOT 'born innocent"; we are born incipient sociopaths. Generally the Law (going back to Leviticus at least) grants a "grace period" of about 7 years before partial individual responsibility sets in.

During that time it is assumed that older persons will guide the child to the realization that his selfish interests must to an extent be subjugated to the interests of society as a whole, elsewise neither he nor his fellow beings can hope to survive. At the same time the child must be taught that it is altogether appropriate to stand up for one's own self when appropriate and necessary. This is a very fine line and the task is managed by human beings who are to a greater or lesser degree imperfect... And the inborn character of the child plays a huge role in this.

In my college days I had a private conversation with a professor in which I expressed my contempt for anyone who thought he could get human relationships down to a science. When I was a child my parents tried to raise me and my brothers out of Dr. Spock's book "Baby and Child Care"; often saying (when trying to deal with us) "The BOOK says......"

We soon learned to mock "THE BOOK". we played a silly game based on "simon Says" which we called "the Book Says" (wherein whatever stupid thing "the book" said, the loser had to do). Soon enough my parents realized that Dr. Spock was just a high falutin MD who never actually had to raise a child in his life, and started using the tried and true tonic of doses of "cowhide tea" (otherwise known as Dad's belt) as a remedy for our hi-jinks.

This story is nothing more than a tale of the consequenses of woefully inept parenting. And nothing more.
 
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