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Bill passed, can we carry in the vehicle...

rcawdor57

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
1,643
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Why Would You State The Statutes And Then Violate Them?

I have read the bill that went to Walkers office several times and all I can say is either she misundertood you or she lied to you.

The changes to 167.31 do not take effect until Nov. 1. The bill cannot be changed after it passed the House unless it is with a Governors line item veto.




It does not matter to me, I have been OC in a vehicle for 9 months, like the next 4 months is going to be much diefferent.

If it is illegal to O.C. in a vehicle until 1 Nov. 2011 why would you state you are doing this now?
 

Brass Magnet

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,818
Location
Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
If it is illegal to O.C. in a vehicle until 1 Nov. 2011 why would you state you are doing this now?

It's his arse. If he, or anyone else for that matter, feels that a law is wrong or unconstitutional and wants to go against it I'm not going to try to stop them as long as they don't advocate that others do the same.

Heck, some would even say it is our duty to ignore unconstitutional laws. I think those guys were on SCotUS.
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Something to Ponder

Here is something to ponder. As pointed out by another post, WI SS 947.01(2) takes effect the day after publication. (Probably in about 10 days.)

947.01 (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the person apply, a person is not in violation of, and may not be charged with a violation of, this section for loading, carrying, or going armed with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed or openly carried.

(Copied and pasted directly from the Bill).
 

BROKENSPROKET

Regular Member
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Messages
2,199
Location
Trempealeau County
If it is illegal to O.C. in a vehicle until 1 Nov. 2011 why would you state you are doing this now?

Becasue I am being honest, which can be a fault at times.

I got sick of doing 'the dance'. I do not like to draw attention and that is what I felt I was doing. But at some point I just said phuck it and I would rack the slide everytime and without trying to be discrete. I did that for awhile before I started to OC in my vehicle. I knew that under 167.31, 'loaded' and 'not encased' would cost over $700 so I carry $1000 on me at all times. Unintentionally, I was witnessed by LEO on more than one occasion. One specific LEO would just smile at me. Another off-duty Deputy Sheriff leaned into my passenger window to discuss the future of CC legislation while my handgun was loaded and holstered on my right side, and he never mentioned it.

I have done it for 9 months. It will be legal in just under 4 months. The bill is signed, I have no hestitation to do it for the next 4 months.

I was disciplining my son for something he did wrong once, and he started to bring into question my illegal activity. I asked him, "What Constitutional basis do you have to justify what you did?" He answered, "NONE", I responded, " I don't break any laws (except speeding) that I don't have the deepest conviction is unconstitutional and have the resolve to take in all the way to the State Supreme Court, if need be".

Most people do not even notice. I don't know exaclty why, but the LEO that have observed me have not chosen to do anything. I was kinda hoping they would. I had already chosen a lawyer incase they did.
 

BROKENSPROKET

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Messages
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It's his arse. If he, or anyone else for that matter, feels that a law is wrong or unconstitutional and wants to go against it I'm not going to try to stop them as long as they don't advocate that others do the same.

Heck, some would even say it is our duty to ignore unconstitutional laws. I think those guys were on SCotUS.

Also, aslong as I don't adovate that others do it, John said that it's not against forum rules.

I did have a quote in my signature line siad basically that it is our duty as free men to obey just laws and to also disobey unjust laws, but I felt that could be construed and 'advocating', so I removed it.
 

BROKENSPROKET

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Trempealeau County
Here is something to ponder. As pointed out by another post, WI SS 947.01(2) takes effect the day after publication. (Probably in about 10 days.)

947.01 (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the person apply, a person is not in violation of, and may not be charged with a violation of, this section for loading, carrying, or going armed with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed or openly carried.

(Copied and pasted directly from the Bill).

But a little out of conext. This is very specific to be charged with 947.01 (Disorderly Conduct), nothing else. It has nothing to do with 167.31(Vehicle Transport).
 
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paul@paul-fisher.com

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Chandler, AZ
But a little out of conext. This is very specific to be charged with 947.01 (Disorderly Conduct), nothing else. It has nothing to do with 167.31(Vehicle Transport).

What he said. Senator Galloway is misinformed. The bill that was sent to the Governor is here: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/enrolled/sb93.pdf

No matter what, no bill can become in effect upon signing by the Governor. It has to be published by the Secretary of State, which it hasn't been, to become actually effective.

Car carry becomes legal under changes to 167.31 and it doesn't become effective until 11/1/11.

Here is the timeline:

SECTION 101.0Effective dates. This act takes effect
on the first day of the 4th month beginning after publication,
except as follows:
(1) The treatment of sections 66.0409 (6), 165.25
(12), 175.49 (4), 175.60 (2m) and (5), and 947.01 (2) of
the statutes and SECTION 100 (1) and (2) of this act take
effect on the day after publication.
(2c) The treatment of section 20.455 (2) (gs) of the
statutes and SECTION 100h of this act take effect on July
1, 2011.

July 1, 2011:

20.455 (2) (gs) Background check for licenses to
carry concealed weapons. The amounts in the schedule
to provide services under s. 175.60. All moneys received
as fee payments under s. 175.60 (7) (c) and (d), (13), and
(15) (b) 4. a. and b. shall be credited to this appropriation.
SECTION 100h.0Fiscal changes.
(1m) In the schedule under section 20.005 (3) of the
statutes for the appropriation to the department of justice
under section 20.455 (2) (gs) of the statutes, as affected
by the acts of 2011, the dollar amount is increased by
$62,300 for the first fiscal year of the fiscal biennium in
which this subsection takes effect to increase the authorized
FTE positions by 1.0 PR position. In the schedule
under section 20.005 (3) of the statutes for the appropriation
to the department of justice under section 20.455 (2)
(gs) of the statutes, as affected by the acts of 2011, the dollar
amount is increased by $62,300 for the second fiscal
year of the fiscal biennium in which this subsection takes
effect to increase the authorized FTE positions by 1.0 PR
position.
(2m) In the schedule under section 20.005 (3) of the
statutes for the appropriation to the department of justice
under section 20.455 (2) (gs) of the statutes, as affected
by the acts of 2011, the dollar amount is increased by
$174,400 for the first fiscal year of the fiscal biennium in
which this subsection takes effect to fund 10.0 LTE positions
for 6 months.
(3m) In the schedule under section 20.005 (3) of the
statutes for the appropriation to the department of justice
under section 20.455 (2) (gs) of the statutes, as affected
by the acts of 2011, the dollar amount is increased by
$77,100 for the first fiscal year of the fiscal biennium in
which this subsection takes effect for the purpose of providing
supplies and services.

Day after publication (7/25/11)

66.0409 (6) Unless other facts and circumstances that
indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the
person apply, no person may be in violation of, or be
charged with a violation of, an ordinance of a political
subdivision relating to disorderly conduct or other inappropriate
behavior for loading, carrying, or going armed
with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is
loaded or is concealed or openly carried. Any ordinance
in violation of this subsection does not apply and may not
be enforced.
165.25 (12) RULES REGARDING CONCEALED WEAPONS
LICENSES. Promulgate by rule a list of states that issue a
permit, license, approval, or other authorization to carry
a concealed weapon if the permit, license, approval, or
other authorization requires, or designates that the holder
chose to submit to, a background search that is comparable
to a background check as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (ac).
175.49(4) CERTIFICATION CARDS. (a) 1. Subject to pars. (b),
(c), and (d) and sub. (3) (a), the department shall design
a certification card to be issued by the department under
sub. (3) (a).
2. Subject to pars. (b), (c), and (d) and sub. (2) (a),
each law enforcement agency, upon a request, shall
design a certification card to be issued by the law enforcement
agency under sub. (2) (a).
(b) A certification card shall contain on one side all
of the following:
1. The full name, date of birth, and residence address
of the person who holds the certification card.
2. A photograph of the certification card holder and
a physical description that includes sex, height, and eye
color.
3. The name of this state.
(c) A certification card shall include a statement that
the certification card does not confer any law enforcement
authority on the certification card holder and does
not make the certification card holder an employee or
agent of the certifying agency or department.
(d) A certification card may not contain the certification
card holder’s social security number.
175.60(2m) LICENSE DOCUMENT; CONTENT OF LICENSE. (a)
Subject to pars. (b), (bm), (c), and (d), the department
shall design a single license document for licenses issued
and renewed under this section. The department shall
complete the design of the license document no later than
the first day of the 2nd month beginning after the effective
date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date].
(b) A license document for a license issued under this
section shall contain all of the following on one side:
1. The full name, date of birth, and residence address
of the licensee.
2. A physical description of the licensee, including
sex, height, and eye color.
3. The date on which the license was issued.
4. The date on which the license expires.
5. The name of this state.
6. A unique identification number for each licensee.
(bm) The reverse side of a license document issued
under this section shall contain the requirement under
sub. (11) (b) that the licensee shall inform the department
of any address change no later than 30 days after his or
her address changes and the penalty for a violation of the
requirement.
(c) The license document may not contain the licensee’s
social security number.
(d) 1. The contents of the license document shall be
included in the document in substantially the same way
that the contents of an operator’s license document issued
under s. 343.17 are included in that document.
2. The license document issued under this section
shall be tamper proof in substantially the same way that
the operator’s license is tamper proof under s. 343.17 (2).
(e) The department of justice may contract with the
department of transportation to produce and issue license
documents under this section. Neither the department of
transportation nor any employee of the department of
transportation may store, maintain, or access the information
provided by the department of justice for the production
or issuance of license documents other than to the
extent necessary to produce or issue the license documents.
175.60(5) APPLICATION AND RENEWAL FORMS. (a) The
department shall design an application form for use by
individuals who apply for a license under this section and
a renewal form for use by individuals applying for
renewal of a license under sub. (15). The department
shall complete the design of the application form no later
than the first day of the 2nd month beginning after the
effective date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date],
and shall complete the design of the renewal form no later
than the first day of the 36th month beginning after the
effective date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date].
The forms shall require the applicant to provide only his
or her name, address, date of birth, state identification
card number, race, sex, height, and eye color and shall
include all of the following:
1. A statement that the applicant is ineligible for a
license if sub. (3) (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) applies
to the applicant.
2. A statement explaining self−defense and defense
of others under s. 939.48, with a place for the applicant
to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read
and understands the statement.
3. A statement, with a place for the applicant to sign
his or her name, to indicate that the applicant has read and
understands the requirements of this section.
4. A statement that an applicant may be prosecuted
if he or she intentionally gives a false answer to any question
on the application or intentionally submits a falsified
document with the application.
5. A statement of the penalties for intentionally giving
a false answer to any question on the application or
intentionally submitting a falsified document with the
application.
6. A statement of the places under sub. (16) where a
licensee is prohibited from carrying a weapon, as well as
an explanation of the provisions under sub. (15m) and ss.
943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r. that could limit
the places where the licensee may carry a weapon, with
a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate
that he or she has read and understands the statement.
(b) The department shall make the forms described
in this subsection available on the Internet and, upon
request, by mail.
947.01 (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that
indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the
person apply, a person is not in violation of, and may not
be charged with a violation of, this section for loading,
carrying, or going armed with a firearm, without regard
to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed or openly
carried.
SECTION 100.0Nonstatutory provisions.
(1) Using the procedure under section 227.24 of the
statutes, the department of justice shall promulgate rules
required under section 165.25 (12) of the statutes, as
created by this act, for the period before the effective date
of the permanent rules promulgated under those sections,
but not to exceed the period authorized under section
227.24 (1) (c) and (2) of the statutes. Notwithstanding
section 227.24 (1) (a), (2) (b), and (3) of the statutes, the
department is not required to provide evidence that promulgating
a rule under this subsection as an emergency
rule is necessary for the preservation of public peace,
health, safety, or welfare and is not required to provide a
finding of an emergency for a rule promulgated under
this subsection.
(2) Notwithstanding section 175.60 (9) (b) of the statutes,
as created by this act, beginning on the effective date
of this subsection and ending on the first day of the 5th
month beginning after the effective date of this subsection,
the department of justice shall, as soon as practicable and without delay, but no longer than 45 days, after
receiving a complete application under section 175.60
(7) of the statutes, as created by this act, for a license to
carry a concealed weapon, do one of the following:
(a) Issue the license and promptly send the licensee
his or her license document by 1st class mail.
(b) Deny the application, but only if section 175.60
(3) (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) of the statutes, as created
by this act, applies to the applicant. If the department
denies the application, the department shall inform the
applicant in writing, stating the reason and factual basis
for the denial.

The rest of it takes effect 11/1/11.
 
Last edited:

ksks

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
112
Location
wi
Yes, I am dense

I hope we can get an AG opinion on whether open carry of a handgun in a vehicle is considered concealed carry if the handgun is not visible from outside the vehicle. We also need an opinion if handgun carry is allowed only in motorized vehicles. Unfortunately s941.23 was not recinded by SB93. It was only modified therefore the carry of concealed weapons is still prohibited subject to certain exceptions. All previous case law is probably still relevant.

My opinion

I'm not getting why people are thinking there is a question about carrying in a vehicle. This has come up a few times. True, SB93 does not eliminate 941.23, but it does exempt license holders from any prohibition.
 

phred

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
768
Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
Fwiw

Not that this is a definitive answer, but at the after signing party I talked to Sen. Galloway's aide about this issue, since I had earlier sent her a request to contact the AG about it. She was instrumental in writing the bill. Since I was carrying at the time, I demonstrated the problem to her so she could understand what was going on. She said that in her opinion, open carry in a vehicle is not concealed carry. By sitting down and putting on a seatbelt, there is no criminal intent to hide the gun.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the AG says.
 

ksks

Regular Member
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
112
Location
wi
Oh, so you're talking about "open carrying," meaning without a license. So, if you don't have a license, is an openly carried gun still open if you sit down in the car.
 
Last edited:

paul@paul-fisher.com

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May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
She said that in her opinion, open carry in a vehicle is not concealed carry. By sitting down and putting on a seatbelt, there is no criminal intent to hide the gun.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the AG says.

Unfortunately, she (and the rest) didn't overturn case law even with the new legislation and her opinion won't help me get out of a 941.23 violation.
 

BROKENSPROKET

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
2,199
Location
Trempealeau County
Not that this is a definitive answer, but at the after signing party I talked to Sen. Galloway's aide about this issue, since I had earlier sent her a request to contact the AG about it. She was instrumental in writing the bill. Since I was carrying at the time, I demonstrated the problem to her so she could understand what was going on. She said that in her opinion, open carry in a vehicle is not concealed carry. By sitting down and putting on a seatbelt, there is no criminal intent to hide the gun.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the AG says.

I love her logic. She gets it.
 

phred

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
768
Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
Unfortunately, she (and the rest) didn't overturn case law even with the new legislation and her opinion won't help me get out of a 941.23 violation.

Oh, I completely agree. The ONLY reason why I posted it was to make everyone here aware of the fact that the Senator and her office are well aware that a problem exists. I think they will not rest on this issue until a clarification and solution is secured.
 

IcrewUH60

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
481
Location
Verona, Wisconsin, USA
Oh, so you're talking about "open carrying," meaning without a license. So, if you don't have a license, is an openly carried gun still open if you sit down in the car.

+1

will we need a shiny new stink'n permit to OC in a vehicle (outside of a known school zone) after 11/1/11 or does the new law exempt "handguns" from 941.23 for everyone regardless?
 

littlewolf

Regular Member
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May 10, 2010
Messages
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Location
A, A
+1

will we need a shiny new stink'n permit to OC in a vehicle (outside of a known school zone) after 11/1/11 or does the new law exempt "handguns" from 941.23 for everyone regardless?

OC in a vehicle O K with or without a steenkeeeen permit. OC in a School zone with permit if walking or in a vehicle. Carry, loadind/unloading in vehicle is not DC .Wearing on hip open in vehicle is not CC even if unintentionally covered by seat belt unless you have criminal intent .
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Messages
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Location
Chandler, AZ
OC in a vehicle O K with or without a steenkeeeen permit. OC in a School zone with permit if walking or in a vehicle. Carry, loadind/unloading in vehicle is not DC .Wearing on hip open in vehicle is not CC even if unintentionally covered by seat belt unless you have criminal intent .

Please provide a citation.

Here are mine:

To "go armed" does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant's person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon's presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden. State v. Keith,

A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section. State v. Walls,

A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry,

Sorry, SB93 doesn't change any part of 941.23 that addresses any of these court ruling so they still stand.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
Paul, was "dangerous weapon" redefined in the new law to exclude handguns?

939.22 (10) “Dangerous weapon” means any firearm,
whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as
a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily
harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the
throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede,
partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood;
any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a);
or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner
it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely
to produce death or great bodily harm.

It references the following.

941.295 (1c) (intro.) In this section,
(a) “Electric weapon” means any device which is
designed, redesigned, used or intended to be used, offensively
or defensively, to immobilize or incapacitate persons
by the use of electric current.
 
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