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best way to deal with a leo that does not know the laws of oc or cc

conandan

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Nov 5, 2012
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florida
If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Depends on the situation...

Sometimes you use the Madagascar Penguin' defense, "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
Sometimes you use the Wookie defense, "Let the wookie win."
...
Sometimes you tell him to go pound sand, accept the arrest and then take him or his department to court and make them pay.

Asking for another, senior officer is a crap-shoot. 1) There's no guarantee that the other officer knows the law any better than the first, and 2) there's no reason for the officer not to lie if it's to his advantage, his partner's advantage, or the departments.
 
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MAC702

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I think this is really going to depend on where you live, and more specifically than just what state.

Even around here, I would treat Las Vegas Metro Police (Clark County) and North Las Vegas Police much differently than I would treat Henderson Police, Boulder City Police, Mesquite Police, Nye County deputies, and the Nevada Highway Patrol.
 

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
conandan said:
If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.
1) welcome to the site
2) the search function is your friend
3) yes, you can request a supervisor. You can also try to explain the laws, but that has had varying success. You can also fight a charge in court, but that's expensive (DAMHIK).
4) probably the best thing to do is know the laws yourself & understand your rights. "Why am I being detained?" If they give you a reason, invoke your rights to remain silent & have a lawyer present for questioning. If they say you're not being detained, walk away. Lather, rinse, repeat.

This is in the WI forum, & has lots of general info with the state-specific stuff.

Two of the most valuable videos you can watch are the ones on YouTube titled "don't talk with police". There's a link in that thread I referenced. The first part is a law professor talking at warp speed, explaining why talking with police is never a good idea (unless you called for help, & even then be careful). The second part is an ex-cop who basically says "yeah, what he said" & explains some of his tactics to get people to talk.

Then there's a site (& YouTube channel) www.flexyourrights.org They have maybe 8 videos showing various scenarios & how to handle them to preserve your rights, all very calm & respectful, but assertive.
 
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conandan

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Messages
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florida
Depends on the situation...

Sometimes you use the Madagascar Penguin' defense, "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
Sometimes you use the Wookie defense, "Let the wookie win."
...
Sometimes you tell him to go pound sand, accept the arrest and then take him or his department to court and make them pay.

Asking for another, senior officer is a crap-shoot. 1) There's no guarantee that the other officer knows the law any better than the first, and 2) there's no reason for the officer not to lie if it's to his advantage, his partner's advantage, or the departments.

I make sure I know the laws where I am carrying. But that is my biggest fear is a cop who does not know the law and causes me a lot of trouble. But I like the wookie defence.
 

davidmcbeth

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If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this.

You are not going to change his mind ... so keep quite. If he wants to arrest you then you only have two real choices ... let him arrest you or don't.

You cannot teach the guy anything except within a courtroom.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
If you are approached by a officer who does not know the laws on oc or cc, and says you are breaking the how can you resolve this. Can you request another officer who knows the law or do you fight it in court if you are charged with something.

One thing not mentioned yet is the cop who knows the law but is telling you that you are breaking the law as a way of intimidating you into compliance. Maybe with an express threat of citation or arrest; or maybe letting you fill in the blank yourself as an implied threat.

The safest option is to exercise your 4th and 5th Amendment rights, while letting the wookie win. Just collect your evidence on your voice-recorder (if legal in that jurisdiction) and fight him later where he no longer has all the advantages he has on the street. Sting him with a well-written formal complaint; or a lawsuit if appropriate.

This has the added advantage of not backing a bad cop into a corner on the street. Cornered animals can be vicious. Cornered bad cops--no less. Lets say a bad cop seizes you on the street with no legal justification to investigate you (fishing expedition) or harass you or intimidate you into not carrying. You throw a bunch of legal stuff in his face, especially about an illegal detention--now you're starting to corner him. Mention a formal complaint or lawsuit, and you've practically got him fenced 350-degrees around. Refer to your camera or voice-recorder to prove you'll have evidence. Now he has to do something to protect himself. Basically you've almost forced him to arrest you and trump up charges and lie in court in order to obtain a conviction; because these are the only ways he can protect himself against your complaint or lawsuit. What if he's a bad cop with two or three disciplinary letters in his personnel file already? Now he's even more desperate to get you before you can get him.

If you are arrested, you get thoroughly searched. You're recording device will be found, even if you didn't mention it. Want to bet whether the recording doesn't get deleted, assuming the device is even returned to you?

That is sort of a drastic scenario, but not outside the realm of possibility.

So, yeah. Safest to let the wookie win until you know more about these things. While exercising your 4th and 5th Amendment rights, of course. In this case, your 4A and 5A rights are legal protections.
 

Deanimator

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Rocky River, OH, U.S.A.
Give him ONE chance to hear what the REAL law is.

If he's too dumb or malicious to accept that, don't waste your time on a moron or a jackass.

Invoke your right to remain silent.

Pursue all of your remedies, administrative, legal and POLITICAL. If there's embarrassing video release it. Make that cop an internet superstar like FORMER Officer Daniel Harless of the Canton PD.
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Give him ONE chance to hear what the REAL law is.

If he's too dumb or malicious to accept that, don't waste your time on a moron or a jackass.

Invoke your right to remain silent.

Pursue all of your remedies, administrative, legal and POLITICAL. If there's embarrassing video release it. Make that cop an internet superstar like FORMER Officer Daniel Harless of the Canton PD.

Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.

I know this doesn't answer your question but I have found not resorting to their level (and I am normally a fairly foul mouthed person) and keeping my calm and not using that language, seems to make them even more frustrated.
 

SFCRetired

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Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.

Ever heard the mantra, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?

If you use vile language in response to an out-of-control, foul-mouthed police officer, all you are doing is lowering yourself to his/her level and further inflaming the situation. Best is to remain polite, calm, and mostly silent.

Keep in mind that such an "officer" is as dangerous as an armed Claymore mine; all he/she needs is the right trigger to explode. And you are on the "Face Toward Enemy" side of that mine.
 

MSG Laigaie

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One thing not mentioned yet is the cop who knows the law but is telling you that you are breaking the law as a way of intimidating you into compliance. .

This one is more common. I was accosted by a LEO (officer allen bass, Bellingham PD) who KNEW I was legally armed but had a weapon(his) in my gut. It can be very easy to get shot in a situation like this. The officer was outgunned mentally and when he tried to bully me I resisted and he became a danger to me and himself. Always a roll of the dice with a LEO contact like this.
I was in the Navy for my first seven years of Military Service. When I was in dive school I had a Chief that told us over and over that "Profanity is a demonstration of a poor vocabulary!". This I believe and practice as well as I can. When I get into confrontations a smile and a firm voice works. I always answer questions with questions. [ Let me see your ID!...Why would I want to do that?......Why are you carrying a gun?.....Am I being detained?...]
 

MKEgal

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SouthernBoy said:
If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m----- f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?
1) because then you're no better than him
2) you're escalating the situation
3) it frustrates/confuses the bad ones more if you stay calm
4) it impairs communication
5) when the video or audio is published, you look better if you don't
 

Citizen

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Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.

Because, in some states, language that would tend to provoke a disturbance falls under the heading of disorderly conduct and would be actionable. And, it wouldn't take a cop as bad as Harless to twist even softer language than you've given into disorderly conduct. All he has to do is cite or arrest you knowing he's caused you a buncha headaches even if the judge tosses it out.
 

Freedom1Man

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1) because then you're no better than him
2) you're escalating the situation
3) it frustrates/confuses the bad ones more if you stay calm
4) it impairs communication
5) when the video or audio is published, you look better if you don't

6) it shows that you were not mentally ready to have any police encounter (I understand that sometimes anyone can slip)
7) it shows that he/she is winning and not you.
 

davidmcbeth

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Which brings up a question. If a "Daniel Harless" type officer starts using the type of language we have seen in his videos, what would happen if you called him a m-----f----- and a whole bunch of similar vile names? After all, he did it so why can't you?

While this may seem to be a loaded question, there is a reason to ask it.

I save that language for the courtroom (and the holding cell near the courtroom).
 
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