another phily story on OC they are going to check you papers

[Dreamer]

Bit of a drama queen are we? Being asked for ID and checked to see if you are legally carrying the arm, isnt quiet the same as being raped.

You are right.

The stink of rape can be washed off with soap and antiseptics. And when a rapist is done, he leaves you alone and goes away.

The stench of tyranny can only be cleansed with a liquid more sanguine, and tyrants only INCREASE their assaults once you comply...

 

[tcmech]

It would be nice if the officers were held accountable for ignorance of the law the same as an average citizen. I am sure that there will be a member of the law enforcement community along shortly to tell us how the citizen was wrong and that I have a crappy attitude wanting to bash the police.

 

[Jared]

Just plain common-sense,is all. Right, wrong or otherwise, unless/until they get it sorted out-what's the smarter play? (your own feelings about wanting to stop or not)
Agitate a candyasss officer who's already exhibiting a high amount of stress (listen to his voice on that audio-that's not the sound of a guy in control of himself or his anxieties) esp. if he has already drawn out on you?
Or keep your cool, man-up and deal with it, and once he's gotten his assurance that you have id/permit etc, get the officer's info-get an att'y, and take it up with his highers at a later point?
The clown in the audio (not video,convenient enough) ranting and carrying on in an attempt to correct or "educate" the officer was only making things worse.And making himself-to the officers-look like a smartass.
Personally, If Im pointing my pistol at you,demanding some kind of compliance, and your silly enough to argue with me about it, Im inclined to think maybe youre not too stable.So why should a cop-who's used to having his authority and such-be inclined to think anything else either?
The officer has the badge, the gun and the authority. At the time something like this goes down, you can be pretty sure his word is what's going to carry the day-for the moment.
Let his superiors re-educate his ignorant self and possibly reprimand the guy.

So ignorance of the law is an excuse if you are a cop? That's sad.

Open carry has ALWAYS been legal in PA, before 1995, one was not required to have an LTCF to open carry in Philly, that law (18 Sec. 6108) was added in 1995.

He immediately offered up his LTCF, the cop was telling him it was illegal, what else should Mark have done?

Furthermore, he offered to show his drivers license as well, he does not have to do that. Pennsylvania only required that one carries the actual LTCF or a reciprocial license if you are carrying under the authority of the license, a drivers license is not ok.

Delaware v Prouse was clear, they can't pull you over to see if you have a drivers license so the same logic should apply in Philly for wearing a firearm.

He had every right to record, you can't be too safe these days. He was violated a couple of times in the past by these goons. These cops are whining that they were set up. Can drug dealers argue that they were set up in a sting operation?

 

[Aknazer]

Problem with this is simply this: the only "talk" it is really generating is talk of "omg why did that guy even have a gun?" and "look at the gun nut" Yes, plenty in here talk about it, be we have a particular bias dont we? John Q. Sheeple, however gets his bias FROM the media-most of whom will twist it, as they always have-to the anti point of view.
Hence-counter productive.

RUN,vote or support those favorable to us who will. Man up, Put up, or Shut up.
But stop already with the whacky stunts on audio/video that only shoot us in our own feet.

Are you kidding me? Most of the reports and comments on this have been that the cops were completely out of line and something should be done about it. Now a decent amount (but nowhere near 50%) do say that the victim likely should have just complied, but even most of those posts put most of the blame and outrage on the officers actions. And then there's plenty of people talking about how the DA is just trying to use his power to intimidate the guy rather than going after the illegal actions of the officers.

And there's multiple ways to skin a deer. You can very easily vote for people who will help while at the same time take other actions to help further the cause. And this action along with others have NOT shot us in the foot (though some indeed have). Instead they have helped highlight to even more people the issues of LEOs abusing power and helped cast a decent light on the subject.

But you can keep championing for people to only try to change things your way and that they should just bow down to cops regardless of how wrong/illegal the cops are. After all, you can always use the courts to gain restitution later...Oh yea that's also the same arguement the INSC used to basically nullify the 4A.

 

[nobama]

OC is strictly a civil rights issue. I dont OC because Im a "gun nut" Its for personal protection sure, but cc is also. Mark did the correct thing, and I have nothing but respect for police officers, but they are human too and not to be put on some "above the law" pedistal. If OC is legal then it is period. If you live in a state that has unconstitutional rule then they need to be changed. The PD in states where its legal need to be educated. Just because someone has a holstered firearm on their hip does NOT assume there is a crime being commited. Here in NC Im not real crazy about licence check points. Im not sure what they are all obout but I do think its a violation of our civil liberties. OC is nothing different then that. The voice recorder is to protect us from LIES. Cops do lie believe it or not and if Mark didnt record ,the cops would have lied fore sure. Like I said,they are human too and want to protect their job.

 

[since9]

Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.

As in now, on a message forum, correct? Where intelligent people can discuss the issue six ways to Sunday while simultaneously educating us all?

 

[PavePusher]

And you folks actually wonder why it's difficult to get OC passed for some of us in states where we are having difficulty getting it?
On top of the idiocy we have to contend with at the legislative level, we've got yahoos out there attempting to prove points of some kind or other,and trying to take it upon themselves to "educate" cops. Especially when they know full well they are living/OCing in an area where LE is hostile to the concept.
Im not saying surrender or give in-BUT. Stop carrying on like ranting lunatics and inciting such nonesne.
Yes, ok, some of the cops may not be hip to it, may outright oppose it, or just plain claim ignorance-take it up with the Dept- at the command levels, not on the street with the Barney Fifes..

No Civil Rights were ever secured by passivity. You have to push a little to obtain and secure freedom and liberty. Or maybe all the Civil Rights marchers in the 50's and 60's should have just stayed home and written mild letters to the newspapers....

 

[kjohns2001]

Common sense

For what it is worth here is my take on O/C common sense.

1. Never forget your permit if one is required.
2. Always be polite if confronted by law enforcement. Polite does not mean giving up your self respect however!
3. If at all possible have a witness handy. Face it, EVERYONE in law enforcement and the judicial system will ALWAYS take a cops word over yours if you don't have a witness of some sort.
4. If you feel threatened by an officer then tell them you feel threatened and request they call in a superior officer and allow you to call your lawyer. The key words here are feel threatened, superior officer and lawyer! Sometimes the cops will simmer down if they know their superior is going to have to make a report and that a lawyer is going to be called. Remember, no one likes to be sued, not even cops.

As for all the people criticizing the man for LEGALLY openly carrying a gun....if you don't think the guy should be openly carrying, then why in Gods name are you posting on a site dedicated to open carry? Either you are actually anti-gun nuts trying to get someone to say something you can point to as an example of how nutty gun owners are, or you are the worst kind of hypocrites, saying you support open carry while trying to come up with every excuse why it shouldn't be allowed.

Personally I feel that every single gun owner that supports the second amendment, the legal right to open carry and the right for EVERY law abiding citizen to be free of harassment by anyone, cop or not, while walking down the street should start a series of open carry protest walks. Invite the press and ask supportive non gun owners to join in as well. Nothing will send a clearer message to those who want to take away the right to open carry, not by passing a law but by intimidation, than organized peaceful protest marches. It has worked for everyone from civil rights protesters to labor unions. No reason it won't work for open carry advocates as well.

And always, ALWAYS, remember that this man was not breaking ANY laws! Repeat that loudly and often to everyone you can get to listen to you! He was LEGALLY open carrying and was not a criminal of any kind, not a lunatic and not someone looking to make trouble. The cops involved broke the law, not him.

 

[j4l]

No Civil Rights were ever secured by passivity. You have to push a little to obtain and secure freedom and liberty. Or maybe all the Civil Rights marchers in the 50's and 60's should have just stayed home and written mild letters to the newspapers....

Or maybe,instead of making a scene of themselves-then whining about it afterwards, step up,run for office-get elected and then make the changes from up top. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[j4l]

"As for all the people criticizing the man for LEGALLY openly carrying a gun...."

Im not criticizing the guy for carrying his gun-legal or otherwise-nor do I think anyone else is.
What Im criticizing is his behavior,and how he conducts himself while doing so- and the resulting publicity stunt nonsense that follows.
By all means,carry your guns-but go on about your regular day-to-day biz like normal.
Dont go ranting in the streets about it,drawing police attention so you can record it and make a scene of it.
And no, we DONT know what this clown,and many of the others whove done this, were doing that kicked off the whole event.Especially just these audio clips-which -conveniently-seem to always edit out or not record the initial confrontation that lead to all of what follows.
Audio? are you kidding me? With audio alone,we dont know/cannot see what this guy was or was not doing to get the attention. We dont see what or how he was presenting himself in the situation to get the cop's anxiety ratcheted up so high to begin with.
And no, Im not buying the story that a veteran cop on the street-who's seen lord knows how many scary characters on the street on that shift alone, was getting that torqued-up over some innocent-looking John Q. Citizen just strolling down the street minding his own...

 

[ccwinstructor]

More progress in the last five years "making a scene" than in the last 50 without.

Or maybe,instead of making a scene of themselves-then whining about it afterwards, step up,run for office-get elected and then make the changes from up top. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Just one problem with your suggestions. They don't work. When people have been willing to assert their rights and "make a scene" in the last five years, we have had more progress in restoring our open carry rights than we had in the last 50 years using your method.

 

[j4l]

And who,exactly ,has used "my" method, yet? Name a single candidate for office from among us-not from exisiting "pro-2a" politicians, but from among us here-who has run in the recent past,or is running in the next election?
That's the method Im suggesting-as a more long-term effort.

Long shot? Yes, it probably the longest shot of all. But -if enough folks in enough States want this bad enough, what's the harm in trying to get a few folks into a position to MAKE the bloody laws, rather than crying about them?

And for the states that already have OC, but are still having these issues with State/Local PD's and such- same thing-run @ the local level. Get some folks into your local governments who favor our cause, and start making the changes from there, too.

Sure as hell, the Antis are doing it-they're already there-hence this forum's existence,no? If that werent the case, we wouldnt have anything to discuss in here would we? So what's stopping the Pros from getting off their backsides and seizing the power, and making the changes they need for themselves?

No more excuses, ladies. Man up.

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/candidates/guide/qualifications.shtml

http://www.ehow.com/info_8214073_qualifications-arkansas-state-representative.html

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_State_Senate

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Florida_State_Senate_elections,_2010

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Pennsylvania_State_Senate

 

[ccwinstructor]

I encourage you to run for office

And who,exactly ,has used "my" method, yet? Name a single candidate for office from among us-not from exisiting "pro-2a" politicians, but from among us here-who has run in the recent past,or is running in the next election?
That's the method Im suggesting-as a more long-term effort.

Long shot? Yes, it probably the longest shot of all. But -if enough folks in enough States want this bad enough, what's the harm in trying to get a few folks into a position to MAKE the bloody laws, rather than crying about them?

And for the states that already have OC, but are still having these issues with State/Local PD's and such- same thing-run @ the local level. Get some folks into your local governments who favor our cause, and start making the changes from there, too.

Sure as hell, the Antis are doing it-they're already there-hence this forum's existence,no? If that werent the case, we wouldnt have anything to discuss in here would we? So what's stopping the Pros from getting off their backsides and seizing the power, and making the changes they need for themselves?

No more excuses, ladies. Man up.

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/candidates/guide/qualifications.shtml

http://www.ehow.com/info_8214073_qualifications-arkansas-state-representative.html

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_State_Senate

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Florida_State_Senate_elections,_2010

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Pennsylvania_State_Senate

A lot of people have run for office. Quite a few have been elected. I encourage you to run. I was incorrect to say that it did not work. It works, it is just not enough to do the job. I am barred from running myself, at present, by law. I expect a number of other people in this forum are as well. What has been really, really effective is this forum, others like it, and people standing up and publicly exercising their Constitutional rights. We have elected quite a few good people in Arizona, and we have Constitutional carry here now. It was done though organization on the web, quite a bit of hard work at the legislature and because people were willing to stand up and exercise their Constitutional rights.

The biggest change, and why we are winning now, instead of losing like we were from 1934 to 1994, is that now we have a little bit of media in the internet, talk radio, and sometimes on Fox. The Constitution, the culture, and the truth are on our side, so it only takes a little bit of exposure to make progress. People who exercise their rights get that exposure.

We are winning.

 

[j4l]

That may well be the case there-in Arizona. A state that has enjoyed OC for many years. I enjoyed it myself when I lived there yr.s back. You are also in a region where more folks are acclimated to it, and open to the idea.

Out here-to the folks whom I was pointing this-in the States where dont yet have it, those tactics have resulted mostly in self-inflicted shots to the feet.
Florida, Oklahoma,Arkansas and Texas-(if im not mistaken?) have all had thier OC bills go down in flames this year. If not DOA from the word go.

Why? Too many anti's in office,making the laws, to many false-flag "pro OC" candidates alonside them pulling last-minute about-face moves when time to vote on these bills,
and...opposition lobbysts armed, at least in part, with qoutes from this and other forum's hotheads, and audio/video clips of Rosa Parks wannabes.

So, by all means, show me where this is somehow "working" out for us.

Let;s try the Shot-Placement analogy:
We agree that in a shooting-regardless of gun/cal. etc, shot placement is important no?
Using these tactics, our shot-placement is off. If/when we get any hits, they are hitting the BG's feet. Ineffective at best.

How about we go for Center-mass/headshots,instead? Get in, take over, make the changes ourselves.

 

[eye95]

Making "changes from up top"??

The flawed premise is that authority derives from "up top." I invite anyone who thinks like this to explore their axioms. The theory under which this nation was founded was that authority ultimately moves from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Anyway, the right to OC already exists. It does not need to be established "from up top." Some flawed laws need to be corrected, and changing them using the legislature to fix them is one possible strategy.

However, in the situation in Philly, the carrier was following those flawed laws. At that moment, he wasn't trying to change them. He wasn't looking to make a statement. He wasn't looking to have an encounter with the cops. And he certainly wasn't looking to have loaded weapons pointed at him. The problem in this case is 100% the police not following the law. No "change from the top" will fix this mess. This is one for the courts, where we, from the bottom, can effect powerful change.

 

[j4l]

Making "changes from up top"??

The flawed premise is that authority derives from "up top." I invite anyone who thinks like this to explore their axioms. The theory under which this nation was founded was that authority ultimately moves from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Anyway, the right to OC already exists. It does not need to be established "from up top." Some flawed laws need to be corrected, and changing them using the legislature to fix them is one possible strategy.

However, in the situation in Philly, the carrier was following those flawed laws. At that moment, he wasn't trying to change them. He wasn't looking to make a statement. He wasn't looking to have an encounter with the cops. And he certainly wasn't looking to have loaded weapons pointed at him. The problem in this case is 100% the police not following the law. No "change from the top" will fix this mess. This is one for the courts, where we, from the bottom, can effect powerful change.

Selective reading filters in full force,as usual I see..
One? strategy? who else makes the laws there ,then? Letters to Santa arent going to help you there. Ranting from the rooftops isnt going to help you there. Get into a position to change or make the laws, as needed, and you wont have to whittle away the the feet of the problem.

 

[ccwinstructor]

Your premise is false

That may well be the case there-in Arizona. A state that has enjoyed OC for many years. I enjoyed it myself when I lived there yr.s back. You are also in a region where more folks are acclimated to it, and open to the idea.

Out here-to the folks whom I was pointing this-in the States where dont yet have it, those tactics have resulted mostly in self-inflicted shots to the feet.
Florida, Oklahoma,Arkansas and Texas-(if im not mistaken?) have all had thier OC bills go down in flames this year. If not DOA from the word go.

Why? Too many anti's in office,making the laws, to many false-flag "pro OC" candidates alonside them pulling last-minute about-face moves when time to vote on these bills,
and...opposition lobbysts armed, at least in part, with qoutes from this and other forum's hotheads, and audio/video clips of Rosa Parks wannabes.

So, by all means, show me where this is somehow "working" out for us.

Let;s try the Shot-Placement analogy:
We agree that in a shooting-regardless of gun/cal. etc, shot placement is important no?
Using these tactics, our shot-placement is off. If/when we get any hits, they are hitting the BG's feet. Ineffective at best.

How about we go for Center-mass/headshots,instead? Get in, take over, make the changes ourselves.

You are mistaking some setbacks for defeat. We did not have anyone put forward an open carry law in Texas for the last hundred years until people started making waves. We did not have people put forward an open carry law in Florida until people started making waves. We did not have an open carry law put forward in Oklahoma until people started making waves. People started making waves because they were able to communicate with each other, understand their rights, and start exercising them. They did this because they could through the new media.

We did not get Constitutional Carry here in Arizona overnight. It took years of work and puting forward bills in the legislature and having them shot down, but educating the legislature more and more until we got them passed.

It is good to get people elected. But that is not where the power is. The power has been in the old media because they controlled the information that the people had. Now they no longer have a lock on that information, and the power is flowing, slowly, back to the people. The more we educate the people about their rights, the more people we will get elected who want to restore the Constitution instead of rendering it meaningless.

 

[Deanimator]

Selective reading filters in full force,as usual I see..
One? strategy? who else makes the laws there ,then? Letters to Santa arent going to help you there. Ranting from the rooftops isnt going to help you there. Get into a position to change or make the laws, as needed, and you wont have to whittle away the the feet of the problem.

Talk about "selective reading filters".

What part of "They don't obey the law AS IT EXISTS" don't you understand?

If the Philly PD chose to pretend that the 13th Amendment didn't exist and tried to reinstate slavery, the solution is not "getting elected". It's bringing down hellfire and brimstone on them in civil court (and less likely, criminal court) and in the court of public opinion.

They need to be shut down cold by repeated lawsuits, and public protests which make it too painful to continue being criminals, which is EXACTLY what they are.

This isn't going to get better until:

1. It gets too expensive for the city
2. Some cops can't make their house payments or send their kids to college

The latter is the fastest route, because no matter WHAT the chiefs say, if the Indians are too scared to do their bidding for fear of hurting themselves and their families, those orders will get ignored in the blink of an eye. This is EXACTLY what happened in Cleveland. The Mayor ordered the cops to enforce it's null and void "assault weapons" ban. The police union told him to pound sand and advised its members not to get sued falling on Frank Jackson's sword. Smart move too, given that preemption was upheld and there were any number of gun owners ready and eager to send the cop who KNOWINGLY falsely arrested them to the poor house.

The Philly situation is a WAR, with no quarter asked or given. Until people fight it like a war, in civil and criminal court and in the court of public opinion, the Philly PD will continue to act like the third world militia that it is.

 

[matt2636]

Excuse ME!!! The Cop was the MORON, He had No Right to use and threaten "DEADLY FORCE". The pointing of a firearm at someone and threatening to use it, is DEADLY FORCE!!!
The mere presence of a firearm does not mean a crime is being committed. Does that mean every person driving a car is stopped to be checked for a License?
If the cop is scared of firearms he should find a new line of work. How Can I say This? Well I spent over thirty years of my life as Wildlife Officer, ie Game Warden, so people have firearms and the point is, I agree don't get complacent, but the public is not the enemy.

j4l after reading your posts, The ONLY CLOWN IS YOU!!!!!

gotta be honest your right. plain and simple. the only reasons LE is acting this way toward OC or CC is because in the past we let it slid. an officer can not threaten deadly force no more than someone who can OC/CC. its all the same rules. this is AMERICA not china or egypt.

 

[j4l]

Talk about "selective reading filters".

What part of "They don't obey the law AS IT EXISTS" don't you understand?

If the Philly PD chose to pretend that the 13th Amendment didn't exist and tried to reinstate slavery, the solution is not "getting elected". It's bringing down hellfire and brimstone on them in civil court (and less likely, criminal court) and in the court of public opinion.

They need to be shut down cold by repeated lawsuits, and public protests which make it too painful to continue being criminals, which is EXACTLY what they are.

This isn't going to get better until:

1. It gets too expensive for the city
2. Some cops can't make their house payments or send their kids to college

The latter is the fastest route, because no matter WHAT the chiefs say, if the Indians are too scared to do their bidding for fear of hurting themselves and their families, those orders will get ignored in the blink of an eye. This is EXACTLY what happened in Cleveland. The Mayor ordered the cops to enforce it's null and void "assault weapons" ban. The police union told him to pound sand and advised its members not to get sued falling on Frank Jackson's sword. Smart move too, given that preemption was upheld and there were any number of gun owners ready and eager to send the cop who KNOWINGLY falsely arrested them to the poor house.

The Philly situation is a WAR, with no quarter asked or given. Until people fight it like a war, in civil and criminal court and in the court of public opinion, the Philly PD will continue to act like the third world militia that it is.

I wouldnt disagree-completely-IF any of these clowns would follow-through afterwards with the legal-recourse available to them instead of just whining about it on the internet.
Apart from the Cleveland case (and entirely different place and situation) How many of these have gone to the point of a civil suit against the depts.? How many have won, if they did?
1? zERO? nONE? So tell me again, please how that tactic is "working" in any meaningful way.

As for the officers not obeying the laws themselves, that's the other half of the reason for getting folks into place to be the ones making the laws. Include in the legislation penalties for LE's who behave like this. Effective changes can be made if properly legislated. But continue leaving it to the folks are currently doing so, and you arent going to have any possibility of that option, are you?