Another Open Carry Texas success story ruins it for Washingtonians.....

[tombrewster421]

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/break...-a-ban-or-prohibition-on-gun-carry-in-stores/
This whole thread only serves to divide us anyway. It really isn't even an issue.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

except this is an not issue of rights, it's an issue of bad application of "rights" resulting in other private parties exercising their rights to exclude open carriers from their property.

bad politics is resulting in private parties not wanting to do business with us. after years of no issues, we now have 5 different issues in the span of a year. re-tasking and evaluating the strategy used is needed.

And here I thought it was about a company that wanted to play both sides of the field, via a weasel worded press release, so they can make $$.

 

[MAC702]

Have any of the stores that have announced their anti-gun policies been without appropriate competition?

Department stores (Target), warehouse stores (Costco), restaurants, etc. Anybody actually lose the ability to gets their goods and services over this? Or are you just being inconvenienced to go somewhere else if you choose to follow their policy?

Inconvenience is legitimate, mind you. Some people live right next to a Costco and don't drive an hour to get to a Sam's Club instead. But Target? I'm just asking to try to put this into some perspective.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

First of all, there is no "us"

Secondly, what strategy was used which resulted in these issues? Please don't say LGOC in Texas, since that stopped occurring in Target somewhere around 6 months ago. Perhaps you are referring to the handgun OCers in Target locations in states other than Texas that I've been seeing all the pictures of recently?

There is media stories involving LGOC in TX as of last week. maybe Open Carry Texas the group did not sanction them.

LGOC in general, I guess it can't be proven that all the images used by MDA was from TX. But that's the focus of the media.

My interaction with people who are not from the same circles, is that even people who hate guns will begrdugingly accept handgun OC as being relatively non-offensive.

most people see long guns as an offensive act. I can't think of many incidents where a LG was used for self defense in a public place in an urban/suburban area.

you'll find every so often a threatened hunter, or someone who uses an AR or Shotgun to defend themselves on their own property.

I think the long gun OC marches did cause some havok. personally I would've organized a handgun OC event in like Texarkana, AR or find some border town with Louisiana and stand on the non Texas side, and say "this is the absurdity of our law" or something like that, "perfectly legal here, but cross this street and I'm a criminal"

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The issue is not whether you've advocated any legislation. The issue is that you are blaming those merely exercising their rights in the only way they can for the decision that was not theirs to make. You simply don't see that you are blaming the victim in this new policy. That are the ones being harassed for lawful action. Both MDA and many gun owners are harassing them for doing nothing wrong.

You never did answer the question of whether or not it is the fault of one exercising their right if tyrannical legislation gets passed.

And obviously target is suppressing the rights of open carriers. It's not only governments that can suppress one's rights.

I just think gun owners need to put the blame where it belongs. On those who made the decisions, and those who made a fuss and brought it to light that people were not harming anyone.

I would say, no an individual exercising their rights is not responsible for tyrannical legislation.....

I do not believe that a private entity truly "violates your rights" unless they're acting under the umbrella of the state. a private entity can violate regulations that grant you "rights" (workplace safety, breaks, etc) btu those are not in the constitution.

they can defraud you, but that's a civil tort.

they can hire a goon to beat you up, but that's assault and battery, which is a crime.

 

[MAC702]

...personally I would've organized a handgun OC event in like Texarkana, AR or find some border town with Louisiana and stand on the non Texas side, and say "this is the absurdity of our law" or something like that, "perfectly legal here, but cross this street and I'm a criminal"

Activism is best done where you live.

And in Texas, if it isn't happening in Austin, Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio, it ain't happening.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

https://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/julia-wykes-starbucks-ottawa-breastfeeding-213759891.html

Times change it seems.

People no longer like guns in public, like they once did.

People now like exposed boobs in public, like they didn't used to.

To be fair, the above changes are half awesome.

 

[countryclubjoe]

I would say, no an individual exercising their rights is not responsible for tyrannical legislation.....

I do not believe that a private entity truly "violates your rights" unless they're acting under the umbrella of the state. a private entity can violate regulations that grant you "rights" (workplace safety, breaks, etc) btu those are not in the constitution.

they can defraud you, but that's a civil tort.

they can hire a goon to beat you up, but that's assault and battery, which is a crime.

Hi EmnoSeattle

Regulations, do not grant any rights. If anything regulations tend to strip rights. My .02

Regarding the legal carry of long guns. Think of this, if uneducated anti 2A citizens grow accustom of seeing all those folks legally open carrying those SCARY long guns, when they encounter a law abiding citizen open carrying a small hand gun they won't think twice about it. They may not even feel threatened any longer. At any rate the beauty of the USA is that we can exercise our God given rights and we can also argue/debate how we feel with regards to how other folks decide to exercise their God given rights. Therefore, debate on, I am enjoying the argument from both sides.

Best regards.

CCJ

 

[stealthyeliminator]

There is media stories involving LGOC in TX as of last week. maybe Open Carry Texas the group did not sanction them.

LGOC in general, I guess it can't be proven that all the images used by MDA was from TX. But that's the focus of the media.

My interaction with people who are not from the same circles, is that even people who hate guns will begrdugingly accept handgun OC as being relatively non-offensive.

most people see long guns as an offensive act. I can't think of many incidents where a LG was used for self defense in a public place in an urban/suburban area.

you'll find every so often a threatened hunter, or someone who uses an AR or Shotgun to defend themselves on their own property.

I think the long gun OC marches did cause some havok. personally I would've organized a handgun OC event in like Texarkana, AR or find some border town with Louisiana and stand on the non Texas side, and say "this is the absurdity of our law" or something like that, "perfectly legal here, but cross this street and I'm a criminal"

Interestingly enough, we were threatened with arrest if we dared OC a handgun in Miller County Arkansas.

But, back on point... I said LGOC in Target. Target is the subject of this thread. Are you insinuating that me participating in a LGOC event which involved Target in no way, led to Target asking customers to not bring firearms into their stores? That's a stretch, bud.

 

[OC for ME]

There is media stories involving LGOC in TX as of last week. maybe Open Carry Texas the group did not sanction them.

LGOC in general, I guess it can't be proven that all the images used by MDA was from TX. But that's the focus of the media.

<snip>

The mere mention of OCT is apparently good enough for you to blame OCT for any OCer, LG or HG, being eyed in ________ (insert store name).

Next you'll be blaming yourself for getting the next store to ban gun, kind of sort of.

 

[heresolong]

Bottom line is that you are blaming a victim. No different from what happened in California with unloaded OC of handguns. They were exercising their only option to carry a handgun. Now they are forced to carry long guns as their only legal option for self defense.

Stop throwing gun owners under the bus.

I think there is a difference based on how and when you exercise that legal option. The policies that we have seen tend to come right after mass gatherings by OC advocates designed to draw public attention. Think about Starbucks. We open carried there all the time. We even had coffee on Sunday mornings with five or six people showing up. Never an issue. When did Starbucks come out with their new policy? When some people decided to have a giant rally, carrying long guns and waving signs. Freaked out someone at Starbucks and they changed their policy. Likewise in CA. There were people going about their daily business openly carrying an unloaded firearm. It was not a problem until a large group decided to make a public showing of it. Tully's responded as did the state legislature. Now Target. Many of us have shopped at Target while OC and never had an issue. A large group of people decide to parade through a Target with AR and SKS slung over their shoulders, Target issues a public statement asking people not to carry in their stores.

What we are really talking about here is not whether you have the right, and not even whether you should exercise that right, but what tactics will result in positive gains for gun owners. Going about your daily business, normalizing carry in the eyes of the public, was working. We have been doing it for ten years or so. Lawsuits have been won against law enforcement agencies, agencies all over the country have changed their training policies to ensure that their officers are properly aware of the laws, and the public, when they even noticed, has become inured to the sight of someone with a pistol on their belt.

Gathering large crowds of gun owners carrying rifles has had the exact opposite effect. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with tactics. If we want to win we choose which battles will have positive effects and which will have negative effects. In six months a small group has chosen a tactic that has undone much of the gains that we have made in the past ten years in the eyes of the public. Can you honestly say that the cause of advancing our rights has benefited from their actions? Because in the end it isn't about whether one person gets to carry a rifle through a store once, it's about normalizing behavior that should be accepted, the right to self defense with minimal restrictions by the state.

 

[Schlepnier]

I stand with OCT, HOW DARE anybody who posts here support the infringement of essential liberty. especially on the second amendment -the right to keep and BARE arms shall not be infringed-. the only way to bear or openly carry arms in texas is with long guns, they have no other option. even they point out how ridiculous it is they can carry a rifle and not a holstered pistol.

The idea that some here would chastise their exercise of essential liberty because of the arms they choose or in this case are forced to bare because it is not our preferred or supported manner of carry should be ashamed of themselves. we as a community of like minded individuals in the support of our second amendment rights should be educated enough to understand the reasons behind the carry of long guns in texas even though it is not our mission statement as we do not suffer the same restrictions.

 

[Schlepnier]

I think there is a difference based on how and when you exercise that legal option. The policies that we have seen tend to come right after mass gatherings by OC advocates designed to draw public attention. Think about Starbucks. We open carried there all the time. We even had coffee on Sunday mornings with five or six people showing up. Never an issue. When did Starbucks come out with their new policy? When some people decided to have a giant rally, carrying long guns and waving signs. Freaked out someone at Starbucks and they changed their policy. Likewise in CA. There were people going about their daily business openly carrying an unloaded firearm. It was not a problem until a large group decided to make a public showing of it. Tully's responded as did the state legislature. Now Target. Many of us have shopped at Target while OC and never had an issue. A large group of people decide to parade through a Target with AR and SKS slung over their shoulders, Target issues a public statement asking people not to carry in their stores.

What we are really talking about here is not whether you have the right, and not even whether you should exercise that right, but what tactics will result in positive gains for gun owners. Going about your daily business, normalizing carry in the eyes of the public, was working. We have been doing it for ten years or so. Lawsuits have been won against law enforcement agencies, agencies all over the country have changed their training policies to ensure that their officers are properly aware of the laws, and the public, when they even noticed, has become inured to the sight of someone with a pistol on their belt.

Gathering large crowds of gun owners carrying rifles has had the exact opposite effect. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with tactics. If we want to win we choose which battles will have positive effects and which will have negative effects. In six months a small group has chosen a tactic that has undone much of the gains that we have made in the past ten years in the eyes of the public. Can you honestly say that the cause of advancing our rights has benefited from their actions? Because in the end it isn't about whether one person gets to carry a rifle through a store once, it's about normalizing behavior that should be accepted, the right to self defense with minimal restrictions by the state.

Nice going blaming the victims there. MDA is behind the efforts to undo the gains with bloombergs cash, a slick PR campaign and threats against any retailer that doesn't cow to their demands.

 

[Alpine]

And the fact that this thread went 5 pages in a little over a day shows that we're doing exactly what the Bloomberg groups want us to do, squabble amongst ourselves and fracture with infighting.

Stop 'compromising' or 'trying to appear 'reasonable.' The anti-gun zealots won't ever give anything back on these 'compromise' positions so you get nothing, but they take everything. Gun owners need to stand united, or we will fall divided. I tell that to every OC-hating CCer I might, and it's true. OC bans always precede CC bans.

 

[tombrewster421]

Nice going blaming the victims there. MDA is behind the efforts to undo the gains with bloombergs cash, a slick PR campaign and threats against any retailer that doesn't cow to their demands.

Exactly! It's MDA demonizing that caused this not the OCers.

 

[tombrewster421]

And the fact that this thread went 5 pages in a little over a day shows that we're doing exactly what the Bloomberg groups want us to do, squabble amongst ourselves and fracture with infighting.

Stop 'compromising' or 'trying to appear 'reasonable.' The anti-gun zealots won't ever give anything back on these 'compromise' positions so you get nothing, but they take everything. Gun owners need to stand united, or we will fall divided. I tell that to every OC-hating CCer I might, and it's true. OC bans always precede CC bans.

View attachment 11773

You're 100% right. They want us fighting each other.

 

[WalkingWolf]

You're 100% right. They want us fighting each other.

The problem with the fighting is only coming from the finger pointers. What are the people fighting the good fight for liberty supposed to do? Lay down and let the anti OC people(Fudds) continue to malign with lies. It is time to see these Fudds for who they are, closet antis who want a gun for their own selfish whims, yet expect others to bow down so they can reap the rewards.

BS! Let's call them out for who they are, either shut them up or educate them. If they refuse both options then give them back the medicine they dish out. After a while they will get tired of being called out for their stupidity, and either shutup, or get educated on the truth.

It is a shame though that there are so many Fudds willing to destroy the constitution for their irrational fears.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

You're 100% right. They want us fighting each other.

It's worse:

http://boingboing.net/2014/07/03/facebook-manipulation-experime.html

The US military and intelligence apparatus has a long history of attempting to manipulate public opinion -- from sneaking Russian editions of Dr Zhivago into the USSR to the covert creation of a "Cuban Twitter". It has also actively delved into directly manipulating online discourse, commissioning "persona management" software that would allow a single spy to run 20 simultaneous online identities for message-board debates and then refining the project with a $2.76M grant to Ntrepid, an LA startup formed to create this software.

Since EMNSeattle and Primus take two slots, that leaves 18 other 'online identities' available.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

And the fact that this thread went 5 pages in a little over a day shows that we're doing exactly what the Bloomberg groups want us to do, squabble amongst ourselves and fracture with infighting.

Stop 'compromising' or 'trying to appear 'reasonable.' The anti-gun zealots won't ever give anything back on these 'compromise' positions so you get nothing, but they take everything. Gun owners need to stand united, or we will fall divided. I tell that to every OC-hating CCer I might, and it's true. OC bans always precede CC bans.

View attachment 11773

A 'felon ban' (1968) preceded OC bans, and CCW bans.

Is everyone ready to unite to reverse that atrocity?

Inalienable right.... free citizens.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

... Now Target. Many of us have shopped at Target while OC and never had an issue. A large group of people decide to parade through a Target with AR and SKS slung over their shoulders, Target issues a public statement asking people not to carry in their stores. ...

But they waited 6-7 months after LGOC in their stores stopped to do it? Seems highly unlikely.