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A community member needs help

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Stop playing games. You weren't paying for it. You were paying for part of it. WE were being forced to pay for the rest of it. Again, that ain't charity. It ain't "others coming to your aid." It is robbery.

So when circumstances stop you from contributing to the robbery, you get no sympathy from me. None.
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
Stop playing games. You weren't paying for it. You were paying for part of it. WE were being forced to pay for the rest of it. Again, that ain't charity. It ain't "others coming to your aid." It is robbery.

So when circumstances stop you from contributing to the robbery, you get no sympathy from me. None.

It's interesting... Charity is what should be used, morally, and focused on to provide these services and utilities to those in need, yet people believe that needs won't be met without force and taxation being entered into the equation, and so they implement these government programs to provide for the needs, and then the government programs inevitably fail in one way or another (temporary government shutdown, discrimination [how ironic is that...], system abuse, inadequate management, the list goes on and on), and people immediately fall back to charity. Charities picked up slack during the government shutdown, people come to charities or ask for charity when they lose government funding for food, housing, retirement, etc. etc. etc.

That being said, here is my problem with OP. He's continuing to pursue use of the immoral, broken system, as opposed to finding another way to provide for himself - even through something like charity. He's asking for charity to reestablish his dependence on the broken charity-substitute, when he should perhaps instead be asking for charity to help him get off the government system, which has just royally screwed him over and has now literally left him on the street.
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
The thing about charity is that it requires those that receive it to be grateful and to work not to need it. When we are forced to pay to "help" others, there is no requirement for gratitude and no expectation to get off the dole. It is self-perpetuating. The dole also encourages abuse. Note how some people don't care about the abuse mentioned in Walmart thread. With charity, abuse almost always results in the end of the charity.

While it could be argued that taking care of the "less fortunate" in not a function of any level of government, it explicitly is NOT a function of the federal government.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
The thing about charity is that it requires those that receive it to be grateful and to work not to need it. When we are forced to pay to "help" others, there is no requirement for gratitude and no expectation to get off the dole. It is self-perpetuating. The dole also encourages abuse. Note how some people don't care about the abuse mentioned in Walmart thread. With charity, abuse almost always results in the end of the charity.

While it could be argued that taking care of the "less fortunate" in not a function of any level of government, it explicitly is NOT a function of the federal government.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Agreed 100%
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Is the OP a long time, well respected contributor to this forum? I can see some help being offered in that case, but a stranger coming along to do nothing but beg won't likely succeed.

Charity requires community, family, connectedness. This is in no way separate from independence, self reliance or self responsibility. It's all part of the same cloth. The young and strong in a community/family stand ready to defend and assist the weak and old, but it has to be in the context of mutual respect and voluntary cooperation. Everyone in the community, except perhaps the smallest infants and the bedridden elders, have a part in the whole, something to contribute, a purpose in life beyond only receiving.

When people alienate themselves from their natural community/family, they then fall to the predators "out there." Is your disability your "fault?" Who knows, and it's not relevant to the discussion. Your disability would bring help, comfort and solace from your family/community if you were a part of one, but it would seem you are not - for whatever reason. Appealing to strangers, to whom you've not even offered a contribution of time, effort and intellect is sad... and likely futile.

All that seems left to you is participation in receiving stolen goods and begging. What a shame.
 

Brace

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
183
Location
Colorado
> Object to public assistance
> Refuse to provide private assistance
> Guarantee continued reliance on public assistance

Winning strategy we have here. Soon OP will have $300,000 in ER debt from the medical effects of homelessness, default on his $30k in student loans, and die, but only after sucking several grand from SNAP first. The second amendment will also have been eroded a bit. But hey, principle, right?
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
> Object to public assistance
> Refuse to provide private assistance
> Guarantee continued reliance on public assistance

Winning strategy we have here. Soon OP will have $300,000 in ER debt from the medical effects of homelessness, default on his $30k in student loans, and die, but only after sucking several grand from SNAP first. The second amendment will also have been eroded a bit. But hey, principle, right?

I addressed this very thing in my first post. Perhaps you should read it again.

For the record, I'm not saying the OP is a bad person or doing anything wrong by asking for help. In fact, if I could, I might still be inclined to help despite the whole government assistance thing - at least with the intent of the money being used for groceries or living arrangements as opposed to paying for a lawyer.

But, yeah, principle. You ask as if there are times that principle should be abandoned. When did society accept that as a reasonable and respectable stance?
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
> Object to public assistance
> Refuse to provide private assistance
> Guarantee continued reliance on public assistance

Winning strategy we have here. Soon OP will have $300,000 in ER debt from the medical effects of homelessness, default on his $30k in student loans, and die, but only after sucking several grand from SNAP first. The second amendment will also have been eroded a bit. But hey, principle, right?

So, when's he going to move in with you? What's your offer to help him? Or is theft from everyone your best shot?
 

Brace

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
183
Location
Colorado
But, yeah, principle. You ask as if there are times that principle should be abandoned. When did society accept that as a reasonable and respectable stance?

I thought the principle was:

Taxpayer money should not be used for financial assistance.

The principle is apparently:

People who accept financial assistance from the government should be refused private assistance.

That is strange and not at all in keeping with any econ text or libertarian work of philosophy I've ever read, whether Rand or Rothbard or Friedman, but it's the apparent universal consensus here. The true free market principle is apparently being as vindictive as possible, and not, y'know, supporting free markets in the exact literal sense. I guess I'll just defer to common wisdom on this one.
 
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Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
This thread might have gone differently had that and the name of someone we recognize at SAF been mentioned at the outset. Now it appears as self-serving adhockery. Be that as it may, education may not be all that it is cracked up to be. Here is another notorious community member underemployed.

Throwing around names means nothing at all. I can easily say that the president of the US told me personally that I needed to start this thread and people wouldn't believe me. I honestly have been in contact with representatives from SAF and as of Thursday, the gentleman that I spoke with did in fact suggest that I reach out to the open carry community. But really, the same reason I don't just throw around names if SAF representatives is the same reason I'm not giving out the name(s) of lawyers I have spoken with that also frequent these forums. Would YOU want somebody to give out YOUR name on these forums?

Is the OP a long time, well respected contributor to this forum? I can see some help being offered in that case, but a stranger coming along to do nothing but beg won't likely succeed.

Am I a long time member? Check out my profile. I've been a member of these forums since August 2012. Well respected member? How many people that have posted in this thread are "well respected"? I can tell you that I have tried to the best of my abilities to fight for my rights and the rights of others since day 1. I have fought the city of Lakewood in Pierce county Washington regarding local laws that are contrary to state law. I have been fighting my local state college regarding rules that are contrary to state law. I have stood up to people that have tried to ignore, restrict or even take away my rights and the rights of others.

As for my specific issue, I'm not fighting the government in an attempt to get my subsidized housing back. I am fighting a private organization that represented the government, that has violated my rights and has caused harm to me. I am trying to get a a PRIVATE organization to pay to fix the damage they have caused and to make sure that they cannot hurt anybody else like they have hurt me. But it really doesn't matter what I'm doing or who I'm fighting because it seems like all of this was a complete waste of time. People here have blinders on. People here see what they want to see and if it's not what they want to see they either ignore it or they claim it's something else and throw in insults.

I have tried to keep it civil here because really, how does it look if I were to call out the people that come to this thread and insult me and I turn around and I'm rude in return? It doesn't help my cause one bit. I could return the insults and make myself look just as bad and those that are speaking negatively about me. And honestly, I still won't go down that road.

If anybody is truly interested in helping my fight then send me a PM, I will no longer respond to this thread. Anybody else interested in just blowing hot air, have a nice day.
 
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Brace

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
183
Location
Colorado
It's interesting... Charity is what should be used, morally, and focused on to provide these services and utilities to those in need, yet people believe that needs won't be met without force and taxation being entered into the equation, and so they implement these government programs to provide for the needs, and then the government programs inevitably fail in one way or another (temporary government shutdown, discrimination [how ironic is that...], system abuse, inadequate management, the list goes on and on), and people immediately fall back to charity. Charities picked up slack during the government shutdown, people come to charities or ask for charity when they lose government funding for food, housing, retirement, etc. etc. etc.

It's funny. Many people think a gun is ideal for self-defense, but when their gun jams, they immediately fall back on a knife. Clearly this makes the knife the superior weapon and the gun useless :rolleyes:

Not to mention you're kind of arbitrarily assuming one linear flow of events. If a person tries private charity and it doesn't work, they will use their other options. This is natural human behavior, it's also what the OP has described. Then when public assistance fails he turns back to private charity because that's the option he has available to him. When one thing doesn't work, people go to another thing. That says nothing about the comparative quality of the things. I'm not even saying your core libertarian premises are wrong, I'm just saying your logic here is beyond stupid.

That being said, here is my problem with OP. He's continuing to pursue use of the immoral, broken system, as opposed to finding another way to provide for himself - even through something like charity. He's asking for charity to reestablish his dependence on the broken charity-substitute, when he should perhaps instead be asking for charity to help him get off the government system, which has just royally screwed him over and has now literally left him on the street.

Somewhat fair, but now we're talking about the utility of allowing a broken system to exist as a way of encouraging the use of a more optimal sytem, versus fixing the broken system to be compatible with fundamental rights. Apparently it is fine for a constitutional right to be violated as long as it increases the respect of property rights by some finite amount, regardless of the other social and financial costs of doing so.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
This thread might have gone differently had that and the name of someone we recognize at SAF been mentioned at the outset. Now it appears as self-serving adhockery. Be that as it may, education may not be all that it is cracked up to be. Here is another notorious community member underemployed.



I think that she strikes to the heart of the issue with a "strong desire to earn money" rather than a strong desire to work.

because surely you can accurately judge someone from behind your computer screen.

maybe you should move to Uganda, everyone works there, no namby pamby big government to speak of...
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
It's interesting... Charity is what should be used, morally, and focused on to provide these services and utilities to those in need, yet people believe that needs won't be met without force and taxation being entered into the equation, and so they implement these government programs to provide for the needs, and then the government programs inevitably fail in one way or another

Kinda like Ron Paul's campaign manager who get sick and died, he ended having the government pay over 400,000 dollars for his care before he died of pnuemonia, and then they decided to try "private charity" to cover his bills, the paulbots were able to come up with 30K for their big free market health care donation charity idea.

the libertarians don't pay period, they don't want to be taxed, and they won't contribute to charity, at least not to anywhere near the degree to sustain a charity based society to replace social spending. so knock the private charity crap off, we all know it won't work.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
OK, here's the rub as it pertains to me:

I could give some amount of money, but I have a lot of reason to believe that whatever amount I give would, in the end, be meaningless as it relates to resolving the OP's two problems - 1) getting some private enterprise agent performing work directly related to the administration and application of a defined government program to stop violating the rights of the OP and those similarly situated, and 2) moving the OP from his current condition and situation into one of stability.

As much as I believe the OP has a good complaint and cause of action, I just have not been satisfied that contributing would lead towards not needing to contribute more in the future. As much as folks like eye95 bluster I have a notion that he too could be persuaded to help put the OP into a stable situation, whether that involved accessing government-funded programs or not. (Seriously, eye, are you going to whinge at and about every single person getting any government benefit? Are you?)

The OP can either PM me with info to help me overcome my reasons for not wanting to put money in the pot or can answer them publically. If the OP answers via PM I will publically say if my concerns were sufficiently put to rest or not, but will not reveal any details the OP reveals to me.

stay safe.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Kinda like Ron Paul's campaign manager who get sick and died, he ended having the government pay over 400,000 dollars for his care before he died of pnuemonia, and then they decided to try "private charity" to cover his bills, the paulbots were able to come up with 30K for their big free market health care donation charity idea.

the libertarians don't pay period, they don't want to be taxed, and they won't contribute to charity, at least not to anywhere near the degree to sustain a charity based society to replace social spending. so knock the private charity crap off, we all know it won't work.

Theft is wrong, always. "Social spending" is a product of theft. No person has any moral or ethical obligation to give anything at all, so "replacing" the "social spending" is a red herring. And even those who insist that charity is of moral imperative would do well to consider just what is truly involved... and the unintended consequences of charity without responsibility.

The Tragedy Of American Compassion http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/compassion.htm
By Marvin Olasky

...Many in the poverty trade today would like us to believe that the difficulties and temptations people face now are somehow unique, more complicated and intractable than any in the past. But 17th, 18th, and 19th century America had it all: alcoholism, drug addiction, illegitimacy, crime, unemployment, abuse, social upheaval, grinding poverty. The crucial difference: those engaged in charity had a frank, clear-headed, unsentimental view of human nature - and they believed the problems were moral and spiritual ones, requiring moral and spiritual solutions.

Throughout our history, private, predominantly religious charities proliferated: ...literally hundreds of such groups that sprang up across the country ... The crucial understanding was simple yet profound: people were helped because other people took a personal interest in them.

And for decades, there was a consensus among those engaged in the work of these organizations, and among society at large: that some poor (destitute through no fault of their own) were deserving of help and others were not; that much poverty resulted when human beings, of their own free will, chose destructive paths (alcohol and vice); that such erring individuals should and could, with God's help, change course; that all able to work, must; that those who helped must give of their time, must give of their love, must give religious counsel and encouragement and admonition; that money alone, given indiscriminately, was poisonously destructive.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Is the OP a long time, well respected contributor to this forum? I can see some help being offered in that case, but a stranger coming along to do nothing but beg won't likely succeed.

Charity requires community, family, connectedness. This is in no way separate from independence, self reliance or self responsibility. It's all part of the same cloth. The young and strong in a community/family stand ready to defend and assist the weak and old, but it has to be in the context of mutual respect and voluntary cooperation. Everyone in the community, except perhaps the smallest infants and the bedridden elders, have a part in the whole, something to contribute, a purpose in life beyond only receiving.

When people alienate themselves from their natural community/family, they then fall to the predators "out there." Is your disability your "fault?" Who knows, and it's not relevant to the discussion. Your disability would bring help, comfort and solace from your family/community if you were a part of one, but it would seem you are not - for whatever reason. Appealing to strangers, to whom you've not even offered a contribution of time, effort and intellect is sad... and likely futile.

All that seems left to you is participation in receiving stolen goods and begging. What a shame.

Wow. Just WOW! Post of the month material.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
Kinda like Ron Paul's campaign manager who get sick and died, he ended having the government pay over 400,000 dollars for his care before he died of pnuemonia, and then they decided to try "private charity" to cover his bills, the paulbots were able to come up with 30K for their big free market health care donation charity idea.

the libertarians don't pay period, they don't want to be taxed, and they won't contribute to charity, at least not to anywhere near the degree to sustain a charity based society to replace social spending. so knock the private charity crap off, we all know it won't work.

My my, what a hasty generalization you have there.

The utility of it is more or less irrelevant anyway. The basis of liberty is not that "it works," it's that "it's right."
 
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Brace

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
183
Location
Colorado
So by that basis if you were forced to choose between even a single liberty and the survival of the human race, you would condemn humanity to extinction? I mean, if the consequences don't matter at all...
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
So by that basis if you were forced to choose between even a single liberty and the survival of the human race, you would condemn humanity to extinction? I mean, if the consequences don't matter at all...

arguing with a dedicated libertarian is pointless.

they refuse to acknowledge historical and practical difficulties with their ideology, it doesn't matter how small the government is, if any government exists at all and somebody is exploited it's the governments fault. sudden valley gunner honestly believes that abuses of workers via the truck bondage system is the government's fault for not regulating those industries less....

they find obscure literature and material that no one cares about and then cite it as scholarly work that justifies their extreme viewpoints.

furthermore while all suffering at the hands of government is wrong, suffering at the hands of private entities is "freedom" in their minds.
libertarians will also throw around words like "statist" as an insult without a thought as to the context or definition of those terms. statist is anyone who believes in any level of government at all, it's an opposite to total anarchy, a libertarian who believes in just enough government to have civil courts is a statist by true definition. another thing is they think that courts or legislatures should not have any real legal authority if they make laws that interfere with someone's ability to use their own property, when you mention that a law has been passed with public support and upheld by courts then say that it still infringes on everyone's rights... yet they believe that process legitimizes outcome when it comes to money and the markets.

the worst part about it all, is that they claim they support the rights of the people, but not if the majority of the people want nothing to do with their extremist ideology.

in short, it's pointless.

this is a good read about these kinds of people
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html
 
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Brace

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
183
Location
Colorado
sudden valley gunner honestly believes that abuses of workers via the truck bondage system is the government's fault for not regulating those industries less....

To be fair, there are some serious issues with trucking regulation. Mandatory empty return trips, for instance. The way the licensing system works is a complete clusterfuck also.

they find obscure literature and material that no one cares about and then cite it as scholarly work that justifies their extreme viewpoints.

I think the bigger problem is the belief that a priori logic makes empiricism unnecessary. They're like modern day Aristotelian physicists in that regard. Even in places where they have a point they're at best dealing with spherical cows in a vacuum.


I found this to be better: http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html

But really, if you read enough economics, philosophy of science, math, ethical philosophy, and history, it seems impossible not to diverge from libertarianism, but not necessarily by a large amount. As Friedman said, if you can be convinced of something in an hour, you can be unconvinced by someone else in another hour.
 
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