1911

[WalkingWolf]

Carry it cocked and locked myself.

I am NOT a fan of lowering the hammer. It has nothing to do with the internal workings of the firearm or the carry of it afterward, it has EVERYTHING to do with the act of lowering the hammer. I have above average hand strength but still find the act of lowering the hammer on a live round extremely dangerous.

Ok, think about it from a non-bullet aspect. You pointed it into a bullet catcher or another safe direction for the bullet to discharge, if the hammer does slip from your thumb and the bullet safely travels away, what do you think that thumb and hand are going to look like when that slide is done with them?

I cannot think of any reason that justifies to me a reason to lower the hammer on a live round beyond intentionally firing that round.

Opinions vary, there is mine.

The unintentional lowering of the hammer has always given me the heebeejeebees by some numpty. I call such unintentional lowering Negligent Discharge of a firearm. The problem of such ND's is whether they are in a controlled environment such as a clearing barrel or pointed in a safe direction or in some part of a human body. Again I have nothing against cocked and locked, when the carrier is doing it safely, but then are the ND's. Unfortunately most people I have seen on the range with cocked and locked take the safety off the moment their hand touches the safety. And then there are the people who feel the need to play with their weapon, putting their grubby hands on it over and over again as they walk about the rest people. This is no problem when talking about revolvers, it is a big problem with cocked and locked.

Cocked and locked is safe when used safely, the problem is a lot of people are not safe. They buy a 1911, load it, and carry it cocked and locked without the slightest idea of what they are doing. They use bad safety practices, and the very reason cocked and locked is considered quicker is quicker also to disaster. The 1911 is not a firearm for untrained newbies, most people should not be walking around with a firearm with no safety, cocked and a light trigger. And once a safety is off, either intentional or not, it is no longer a safety.

 

[Steeler-gal]

Carry the gun how you want and makes you most comfortable, just tell everybody else to buzz off.

None of my guns have safeties on them so this is what I tell my students in class. It's really nobody's business how it's carried.




========================
NRA Certified Instructor & Range Safety Officer
Teaching Classes in Lorton VA & Springfield VA
PM me if you need a class, RSO or safety briefing

 

[WalkingWolf]

None of my guns have safeties on them so this is what I tell my students in class. It's really nobody's business how it's carried.

+1
I have nothing against cocked and locked, or condition two, or even three. All are safe mode of carry when done properly. My problem are people who do not get trained and make errors. This is even true for any handgun, but the 1911 is not forgiving to fools. Fingering the trigger on any gun is unacceptable, it is disastrous with a 1911 style gun.


If anybody's trigger finger gets itchy try fingering something less deadly. Nobody ever died from fingering a nose.

 

[LMTD]

Nobody ever died from fingering a nose.

Might want to make that clear, finger ones OWN nose or death might be an impending threat!

 

[SFCRetired]

Don't know if this will help, but it is what I worked out for myself:

I'm using a SA "Champion" model which is, I understand, a clone of the Commander and an ITAC retention holster.

1. Hand on grip, depress catch with index finger and draw weapon, allowing index finger to align with slide.
2. Align weapon with intended target, at the same time gripping lower edge of dominant hand with the non-dominant hand.
3. With thumb of dominant hand (right, in my case) disengage manual safety.
4. Place finger on trigger and fire.

This is basically how I practice and have found it possible to interrupt the sequence anywhere short of firing. It also takes a lot longer to type this out than it does to put it in practice.

Do, please, notice that the very last step is the only one in which a finger is placed on the trigger. Also notice that the manual safety is not disengaged until the weapon is aligned with the target.

The man who originally trained me on a 1911 was, of all things, a Chief Gunner's Mate (guns), USN. He knew what he was talking about and gave me several tips that stood me in good stead during my career.

 

[Wolfstanus]

I carry cocked locked.

I have seen series 70 fall to the deck in that condition and nothing happend besides dead silence and all eyes to the owner. So I think it's safe. Also seen people hit the hammer while it rested on the pin to see if they could get the primer to go off. Nada.

It's safer in this condition. All I have to do is pull, thumb safety. aim and fire. Safer than a glock trololololol.

 

[MAC702]

Draw
Rotate (weapon is now pointed downrange, but not yet aimed)
Safety
Support hand comes into grip (when possible)
Aim (when possible)
Finger on trigger and Fire
Finger off trigger
BDA (Battle Damage Assessment) and Cover

 

[Big Gay Al]

Another note is to watch the video of the female police officer negligently firing her 1911 into a prone suspect. Had the hammer NOT been back it would not be possible. Also note the "I just ##### shot myself video" again a accident that would not have happened if the gun had the hammer down. In fact the carry mode for years for the US Army has been condition three, wonder why. Why would the army not carry the 1911 as it was designed

I've seen that video, it was not a 1911 that the female LEO was holding. The biggest problem with the 1911, it takes more training than some weapons. Most semi-auto pistols do, in one fashion or another. But as long as you train with it, and get used to it, it's just as safe as any other firearm.

I'm 56, and have carried a firearm, both professionally and non-professionally most of my adult life. Also, most of that was carrying a 1911, and except for when I was in the army, I always carry it cocked, loaded and locked. It's the only way to go with JMB's masterpiece.

 

[MAC702]

...police officer negligently firing her 1911 into a prone suspect. Had the hammer NOT been back it would not be possible....

Yeah, the hammer was definitely the problem...

 

[Wolfstanus]

Might want to make that clear, finger ones OWN nose or death might be an impending threat!

I'll say just finger yourself... Or your better... Then again they might not like it either

 

[WalkingWolf]

I've seen that video, it was not a 1911 that the female LEO was holding. The biggest problem with the 1911, it takes more training than some weapons. Most semi-auto pistols do, in one fashion or another. But as long as you train with it, and get used to it, it's just as safe as any other firearm.

I'm 56, and have carried a firearm, both professionally and non-professionally most of my adult life. Also, most of that was carrying a 1911, and except for when I was in the army, I always carry it cocked, loaded and locked. It's the only way to go with JMB's masterpiece.

JMB designed the semi auto without a thumb safety~~The thumb safety was added because the US Calvary refused the 1910 without one.

 

[DamonK]

Yeah, the hammer was definitely the problem...

It's not the hammer's fault. Just because you can see the hammer doesn't mean it's any more dangerous than internal hammers. What causes accidents with 1911s and just about any firearm is the lack of safety and trigger control.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[WalkingWolf]

It's not the hammer's fault. Just because you can see the hammer doesn't mean it's any more dangerous than internal hammers. What causes accidents with 1911s and just about any firearm is the lack of safety and trigger control.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Exactly, and from what has happened time and time again the booger finger completely forgets safety. One of the reasons police depts avoided single action semi autos. Because a good number of people do not have safety and trigger control 100% of the time. A double action semi auto takes considerable more effort to manipulate the trigger, 4 times as much. People get distracted and negligent discharges happen, nobody intentionally has a negligent discharge.

The 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked, the previous model presented to the Army was the colt 1910 auto WITHOUT a thumb safety. It was rejected by the Calvary for obvious reasons, difficulty lowing the hammer while mounted. But the Arms Manual of 1913 instructed that the 1911 be carried loaded with a cartridge in the chamber with the hammer down. The claim can be made that cocked and locked is safe as long as the booger finger stays off the trigger, and the safety stays on, but we all know that does not stop negligent discharges. For there to be a negligent discharge with the hammer down a person HAS to cock the 1911, so while being a very bad habit, having the finger on the trigger will not cause a negligent discharge. Apparently because some dufus managed to still pull the hammer back, and pull the trigger the Army changed the mode of carry to an empty chamber. Some people are/were not capable of carrying a 1911.

There are people who should not carry a 1911, let alone any gun. That is to say is should not be a decision of government, but a intelligent decision of the public to know there limits. This idea that a person just gets a 1911 and then loads and carries it cocked and locked with no training or idea of what they are doing is insane.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, it didn't have a thumb safety because JMB considered the grip safety to be enough. And in my 30+ years of carrying, any 1911 that I've carried never went bang until I wanted it to. The only safety I need sits between my ears.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Actually, it didn't have a thumb safety because JMB considered the grip safety to be enough. And in my 30+ years of carrying, any 1911 that I've carried never went bang until I wanted it to. The only safety I need sits between my ears.

So far that works for you, unfortunately it is not the case with Many people. We all have likely seen at the range a gunner reach for the 1911 in the holster and take off the safety in the holster, only to put the finger in the trigger guard before it is ever raised to target. Actually this is the case with most of the people I have seen with the 1911.

You can rubber band the grip safety, not use the thumb safety with a cocked and loaded 1911 and not have a negligent discharge UNTIL the booger finger is on the trigger. In fact the gun can be left that way for years sitting in a box, on table, safe whatever and it will not fire until that trigger is pulled. The problem is the pulling of the trigger by finger when it should not have been. The brain is the best safety BUT again it has farts, and sometimes those farts cause motor vehicle collisions, sometimes they cause negligent discharge.

Take that same gun, safely unload the gun, double and triple check that gun. Play to your hearts content with the safety and trigger, and unless you make a mistake with unloading that gun will not fire. This is not rocket surgery, take one loaded gun, with a very easy thumb safety a cocked hammer, and a brain fart, and hopefully it will only result in a hole in furniture. Take that loaded gun safely lower the hammer, though poor gun handling, the gun will not go off unless the hammer is cocked. This is why so many riders prefer a SA revolver on horseback, until that hammer is pulled back the gun will not fire, if loaded properly. Again it does not take rocket surgery.

For those who do have a negligent discharge, you can always tell the authorities that JWB designed it to be carried cocked and locked...:uhoh:

 

[Big Gay Al]

So far that works for you, unfortunately it is not the case with Many people. We all have likely seen at the range a gunner reach for the 1911 in the holster and take off the safety in the holster, only to put the finger in the trigger guard before it is ever raised to target. Actually this is the case with most of the people I have seen with the 1911.

You can rubber band the grip safety, not use the thumb safety with a cocked and loaded 1911 and not have a negligent discharge UNTIL the booger finger is on the trigger. In fact the gun can be left that way for years sitting in a box, on table, safe whatever and it will not fire until that trigger is pulled. The problem is the pulling of the trigger by finger when it should not have been. The brain is the best safety BUT again it has farts, and sometimes those farts cause motor vehicle collisions, sometimes they cause negligent discharge.

Take that same gun, safely unload the gun, double and triple check that gun. Play to your hearts content with the safety and trigger, and unless you make a mistake with unloading that gun will not fire. This is not rocket surgery, take one loaded gun, with a very easy thumb safety a cocked hammer, and a brain fart, and hopefully it will only result in a hole in furniture. Take that loaded gun safely lower the hammer, though poor gun handling, the gun will not go off unless the hammer is cocked. This is why so many riders prefer a SA revolver on horseback, until that hammer is pulled back the gun will not fire, if loaded properly. Again it does not take rocket surgery.

For those who do have a negligent discharge, you can always tell the authorities that JWB designed it to be carried cocked and locked...:uhoh:

It doesn't have to be a 1911 to have an ND. I've seen more than a few with Glocks, and others that are supposed to be better than the 1911. So far as I can see, the only advantage to the Glock, it works like a revolver. No safety to disengage, just pull/squeeze the trigger.

Probably one of the most (in)famous youtube videos is of the DEA agent who shot himself in a class room of children with an "unloaded" Glock.

 

[WalkingWolf]

It doesn't have to be a 1911 to have an ND. I've seen more than a few with Glocks, and others that are supposed to be better than the 1911. So far as I can see, the only advantage to the Glock, it works like a revolver. No safety to disengage, just pull/squeeze the trigger.

Probably one of the most (in)famous youtube videos is of the DEA agent who shot himself in a class room of children with an "unloaded" Glock.

It always boils down to a finger on the trigger~~There even have been police ND's with DA revolvers. But if the safety is between the ears why use the safety on the 1911? It is not because the gun can go off without trigger manipulation. Why not just cocked, instead of cocked, and locked?

We also do not know if the DEA agent was one of those numpties who had a trigger job done on his gun, so he has the same pull as a 1911?

 

[Big Gay Al]

It always boils down to a finger on the trigger~~There even have been police ND's with DA revolvers. But if the safety is between the ears why use the safety on the 1911? It is not because the gun can go off without trigger manipulation. Why not just cocked, instead of cocked, and locked?

We also do not know if the DEA agent was one of those numpties who had a trigger job done on his gun, so he has the same pull as a 1911?

Everything you're taught, comes together between the ears. If you're taught to activate certain safeties, that's what you do. As for the DEA guy, what I saw was he racked the slide, THEN dropped the magazine. That's why it was loaded, when he thought it was empty. Frankly, I seriously doubt he ever used a 1911. For certain, he did not use the safety between his ears.

And yes, keeping the finger off the trigger until you need to shoot is the key to avoiding NDs. That is true with any firearm. Just like you treat all firearms as if they're loaded, whether you think they are or not. Even when practicing, always point in a safe direction, and never at anything you don't want to destroy. I guess the DEA guy didn't like his leg.

 

[WalkingWolf]

The question remains~Why carry cocked and locked, and not just cocked if the safety is between the ears/brain, and infallible? If the brain safety is beyond mistakes, why the manual safety?

 

[Big Gay Al]

The question remains~Why carry cocked and locked, and not just cocked if the safety is between the ears/brain, and infallible? If the brain safety is beyond mistakes, why the manual safety?

Again, it's all in how you've been trained. That, and I'm pretty sure I never said the brain is infallible. The brain is the ultimate "safety" device. But, it's not infallible. That DEA agent proved that.

When I was first introduced the the 1911, I was taught to use all the safeties it has. Not to circumvent them. That is what I'm used to. YMMV. In a life or death situation, your training is what takes over. If you're used to doing certain things, that is what you're going to do. Part of the reason it's important to train for those situations, is to instill what some call muscle memory. Part of the reason I don't own a Beretta is because it's manual safety works the opposite from a 1911. The Taurus, on the other hand works the same. Up is safe, down is not.