• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

10mm

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
To your first statement, that's fairly accurate. I've found that especially in FMJ cheapo boxes you'll find some really lethargic rounds that are just a tad hotter than most .40 SD rounds.

Remington UMC is pretty decent stuff for practice. Not too hot but you still get a little bit of the 10mm kick. Price on these rounds are usually not worth it though.

Armscor is what I mainly shoot for practice with 10mm. It's noticeably more weak than the Rem UMC, definitely right around .40+ felt recoil level, but it's also about $10-$12 cheaper per 50 round box so it makes more sense.

I'll always namedrop Underwood as far as full power 10mm loads go. I've shot a lot full power Underwood loads with not a single defect, and boy are they hot! The difference in recoil is significant between the Armscor and the Underwood stuff. With the Underwood you definitely know you're shooting something special - 10mm :)

It's funny though, even with the weak Armscor stuff I've had a range officer come up behind me and say, "Now that's GOTTA be a 10mm, right?"
Interesting! Thanks for your reply.

What specific parts (mag, barrel, etc.) does one have to buy in order to shoot 10mm out of a Glock 21? I've got a Gen4.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington


I will admit that the Model 20 came before the 21. They follow the numerical order. The 17 came before the 19, too, but that doesn't justify a claim that the 19 is REALLY a 17 with a longer barrel or that my 27 is REALLY a 26 with a different barrel. They are separate and different models, the slides have the CORRECT model number imprinted in them. They may share many parts, but that doesn't make one, REALLY, the other. That is just smart manufacturing and saves cost. It doesn't magically change one into the other. The serial number on my model 27 frame will match up to a 27 not to a 26 and the serial number on my 21 frame will match up to a model 21 not a 20(REALLY). This may be a minor difference between what you are saying and what I am saying, but words have meanings and they REALLY matter.
I got the info straight from the big GLOCK book.

The only difference between a model 20 and 21 is the barrel. The mags will fit in either. Just make sure you have the correct mag for the ammo and barrel you are using.

There is more difference between the 9mm and the 40s&w.

Then you have the 357sig and the 40s&w the only difference again being the barrel. This is for GLOCK only. Maybe true for other pistols but I am only speaking about GLOCK.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
@BB62

I think if you want to do it right you want to purchase the whole G20 upper. Slide, barrel, recoil system - and use G20 magazines.

Someone correct me if I am wrong...
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
@BB62

I think if you want to do it right you want to purchase the whole G20 upper. Slide, barrel, recoil system - and use G20 magazines.

Someone correct me if I am wrong...

No - you are The Truth :)

Thought you were Wrong once but was mistaken.
 
Last edited:

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
No - you are The Truth :)

Thought you were Wrong once but was mistaken.

:lol:



I am what I am and that's all that I am!



On second thought BB62, buy a Glock 20 slide, a KKM stainless barrel, and G20 mags. That way you can shoot hardcast :)
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Let me repeat it then, do you think you can hold 500 pounds in your hand?
Paper or coins?;)

Don't have a 10mm, that round is rare. Availability is my primary concern.

9mm, .40, .45 are the pistol calibers. Rifle calibers, too many to name here but 5.56/.223 and .243 (deer rifle) and the ole .22LR. 12GA and 410 for the shotties.

This little beauty http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/smith-wesson-60 (called S&W no +P ammo) was given to my lovely and gracious wife as a going off to college gift by her dearly departed father some 20 odd years ago. My DW is not a fan of my overly complicated pistols...too many moving parts.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Paper or coins?;)

Don't have a 10mm, that round is rare. Availability is my primary concern.

9mm, .40, .45 are the pistol calibers. Rifle calibers, too many to name here but 5.56/.223 and .243 (deer rifle) and the ole .22LR. 12GA and 410 for the shotties.

This little beauty http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/smith-wesson-60 (called S&W no +P ammo) was given to my lovely and gracious wife as a going off to college gift by her dearly departed father some 20 odd years ago. My DW is not a fan of my overly complicated pistols...too many moving parts.
Sorry, DW's pistol is no prop. Straight shooter. DW can hit the 8 ring at 10 paces.
 

STLDaniel

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
86
Location
Saint Louis
Based on this post, quoting a FBI report...
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

My take in a nutshell,
1. It's much better to compare projectiles instead of calibers. A well designed expanding 9mm will be much better than a poorly designed .45 that doesn't expand well (and vice-versa).
2. "Stopping Power" is a myth (according to that report)
3. Incapacitating a threat is achieved by a direct hit to the central nervous system, or to major organs causing rapid blood loss. (Handgun rounds of any caliber are not fast enough for reliable fragmentation nor the temporary cavity to be effective, requiring the direct hit).
4. Given #3, shot placement, rather than caliber is the decisive element. Increasing the number of hits to the torso increases your chances of hitting the CNS or vital organ, so the caliber that helps you best achieve rapid controlled hits on the threat's torso provides a significant benefit.
5. Studies at the time showed that the average shooter (including LEO's) were better at placing multiple quality shoots using 9's then the other tested calibers.
It concludes "the move to 9mm Luger [away from larger calibers] can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel."

While that study concluded with 9's being an advantage, I post this as more the principle rather than a caliber argument. The key is, which one will you place the most quality shoots with? For me, it happens to coincide with this study and I carry 9mm, but if that's a .45 or a .380 for you, that will be an advantage over the 9.

I feel the "caliber" is probably the least important factor, compared to everything else, such as the projectile (get a quality expanding one), recoil control (keep within your controllable range for quick follow ups: consider load, gun weight, stance, grip...), and most importantly... training and proper practice will beat any caliber!
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
Based on this post, quoting a FBI report...
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

My take in a nutshell,
1. It's much better to compare projectiles instead of calibers. A well designed expanding 9mm will be much better than a poorly designed .45 that doesn't expand well (and vice-versa).
2. "Stopping Power" is a myth (according to that report)
3. Incapacitating a threat is achieved by a direct hit to the central nervous system, or to major organs causing rapid blood loss. (Handgun rounds of any caliber are not fast enough for reliable fragmentation nor the temporary cavity to be effective, requiring the direct hit).
4. Given #3, shot placement, rather than caliber is the decisive element. Increasing the number of hits to the torso increases your chances of hitting the CNS or vital organ, so the caliber that helps you best achieve rapid controlled hits on the threat's torso provides a significant benefit.
5. Studies at the time showed that the average shooter (including LEO's) were better at placing multiple quality shoots using 9's then the other tested calibers.
It concludes "the move to 9mm Luger [away from larger calibers] can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel."

While that study concluded with 9's being an advantage, I post this as more the principle rather than a caliber argument. The key is, which one will you place the most quality shoots with? For me, it happens to coincide with this study and I carry 9mm, but if that's a .45 or a .380 for you, that will be an advantage over the 9.

I feel the "caliber" is probably the least important factor, compared to everything else, such as the projectile (get a quality expanding one), recoil control (keep within your controllable range for quick follow ups: consider load, gun weight, stance, grip...), and most importantly... training and proper practice will beat any caliber!

Some choose the easiest caliber for them to shoot. Others work backwards by finding the most effective caliber and working up to it ;)

I shot .40 S&W in the meantime before I bought a 10mm.
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
Based on this post, quoting a FBI report...
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

My take in a nutshell,
1. It's much better to compare projectiles instead of calibers. A well designed expanding 9mm will be much better than a poorly designed .45 that doesn't expand well (and vice-versa).
2. "Stopping Power" is a myth (according to that report)
3. Incapacitating a threat is achieved by a direct hit to the central nervous system, or to major organs causing rapid blood loss. (Handgun rounds of any caliber are not fast enough for reliable fragmentation nor the temporary cavity to be effective, requiring the direct hit).
4. Given #3, shot placement, rather than caliber is the decisive element. Increasing the number of hits to the torso increases your chances of hitting the CNS or vital organ, so the caliber that helps you best achieve rapid controlled hits on the threat's torso provides a significant benefit.
5. Studies at the time showed that the average shooter (including LEO's) were better at placing multiple quality shoots using 9's then the other tested calibers.
It concludes "the move to 9mm Luger [away from larger calibers] can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel."

While that study concluded with 9's being an advantage.

Not directing comments towards the poster but the study...


Cause test always appear to be rigged to favor whatever, the powers that be want it to say, imho.
They choose calibers which the 9mm had a distinct advantage over, ammo capacity.
"Once the tests were designed, a decision had to be made on which caliber to test." FBI training bulletin 1989
Because, if caliber wasn't a factor why wasn't 10mm/22TCM/5.7/7.62x25 (modern gun) just to name a few?

5.7= http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/5.7x28mm/5.7x28mm.html
9mm= http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/9mm Luger/9mm Luger.html
7.62x25= http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/7.62x25mm/7.62x25mm.html

The above offer similar would ballistics, with less recoil, similar/more rounds available (15-30per mag) and armor penetrating rds for many of those calibers.


"LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident"
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/10mm Auto/10mm Auto.html

Paraphrased" The 10mm was the most accurate and best performing round within the FBI's testing protocols."
"Although penetration and wound size govern handgun (caliber) wound effectiveness, penetration is more critical." same FBI training bulletin as above


"The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus."
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
Modern bullets/powders have made the BIG 3 calibers basically the same ballistically, giving 9mm the edge with capacity over 40SW/357sig, 45ACP.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
However, those same advancements have/can improved other calibers.

For me it's 10mm for EDC.
Why would I choose the caliber (9mm) against a man which weights more than the avg deer and as much as a typical black bear, and can shoot back. :)



MY take is this :
Carry the caliber/gun you shoot the best.
Than pick the best ammo that cycles reliably and fires to POA, and don't stop applying ACCURATE HITS until the attacker is no longer a threat.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
Was hoping to show this off to Peter Nap...

My Sig Match Elite P220 10mm came in today, and I promptly put rosewood grips on it to *supposedly* match my P229 .40. Wish the grain of wood was darker like my P229, but whatevs. This is definitely the finest firearm I've ever fondled. Proud to add it to my growing collection of Sigs.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
My Sig Match Elite P220 10mm came in today, and I promptly put rosewood grips on it to *supposedly* match my P229 .40. Wish the grain of wood was darker like my P229, but whatevs. This is definitely the finest firearm I've ever fondled. Proud to add it to my growing collection of Sigs.
Refinishing wood grips is quite easy. Strip with an eco-friendly remover and stain them in a manner that you and Don would appreciate.
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
"SNIP"
My Sig Match Elite P220 10mm ... This is definitely the finest firearm I've ever fondled. Proud to add it to my growing collection of Sigs.
It surely is pretty..
Unfortunately in a recent review in Gun Test magazine both the RIA and Glock 20 proved to be more accurate even with Sig's 10mm ammo line...

That may change after a break-in period.

YMMV
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I don't worry about that nonsense caliber wars. I have two requirements, the bullet penetrates, and is accurate, and reliable. I will have to dig for the info but 22, and 380 have made more stops than any other round. If I KNOW that trouble is looming I want my rifle, but since that is too cumbersome to carry for day to day even a 22lr that works is enough.

Police should concentrate on their accuracy instead of worrying about caliber, and capacity. They need much less capacity if they would just stop the pray, and spray tactics. After all if 19 rounds of 20 miss the target what the heck is the purpose of having that many.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
I view the subject from several angles. First of all, when it comes down to it, you're going to be effective with any caliber as long as you are an expert marksman with the gun you're carrying. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter if I was shooting .22lr or .500 S&W Magnum if the threat to me was able to get off 3 or 4 well placed shots before I could even draw. Against human threats one can be effective with almost any pistol cartridge. It all depends on where you carry and why.

If you spend time in the woods, that is where the advantage comes into play regarding higher powered pistol cartridges. In the city the ceiling is reasonably low on necessary firepower, but if you frequent areas with bear or other predatory animals, or a sparsely populated area maybe it makes more sense for you to carry a magnum or magnum-like handgun with a little heavier bullet.

Tactics should also come into consideration. If you are not a proficient shooter and only visit the range once or twice a year, you are probably more concerned with concealability or magazine capacity. More experienced shooters have the luxury to be able to carry a wider variety of handguns and still remain proficient due to practice and experience.

I'm probably repeating myself here, but I personally love a reasonable amount of felt recoil. How that is defined is completely subjective. To me, a .40 S&W feels like nothing and a 10mm feels like a handgun should. My .460 Rowland provides moderately strong but not excessive recoil to me, but I've let friends shoot it that only wanted to shoot 3 rounds and they were done with it. That gun also serves a specific purpose for me as my primary woods carry pistol, so I don't really think about recoil or overpenetration. In fact, I want it to pass through. 2 holes with one shot are more effective than 1 hole, especially in regards to a major threat or while hunting.

I don't think you can get much better than a Glock 20 as far as a combat-ready pistol goes, but it's still not my favorite. I have a more mature, refined taste so I require a Sig more often than not (heavy sarcasm in an English accent). Seriously though, 15+1 in 10mm and the pistol is really not very heavy. 2 spare mags and you've got a whopping 46 rounds of 10mm on you. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel safer than a mother's bosom. I'm not sure of the P220-10's accuracy compared to the Glock because I haven't tested it at long range yet, but I would imagine it to be as good or better since it's a stainless match grade 5" barrel as opposed to the 4.6" stock Glock barrel. I can say that I have hit a 12" steel plate at 200 yds. with my G20 with a stock barrel, so I honestly can't complain about Glock's accuracy either. That was with el cheapo Armscor 180gr FMJ too, if I remember correctly.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
After years of arguing back and forth about what's the best firearm for home defense, I came to a startling conclusion:

If you're faced with a perp and manage two shots to the heart and one to the head, you're chances of both stopping them and your surviving the tale soar far above all other options.

The only caveat is that you absolutely MUST be sure the situation meets two standards:

1. Immediate threat to life or limb. This requirement varies from state to state, but is present in most, if not all states. Some (perhaps many?) states also allow citizens to use deadly force while defending their property.

2. No avenue of escape. Sadly, this requirement is often absent under many state laws, as apposed to those states with "stand your ground laws." States without stand your ground laws require you to make a reasonable attempt to escape. I find such laws unbelievably stupid, as it leaves the bad guys free to continue doing what bad guys do, including burning down your home, if that's what they so desire. States with stand your ground and "castle" laws allow you to stand firm against criminal activity, stop the bastards with a gun if you can, and shoot the bastards if you can't stop them. In some states, you can shoot them simply for being in your home illegally. Amazingly, such states tend to have lower rates of home burglaries, thereby helping to keep the criminal element in check.

What I have found is that when people elect local, county, state, and federal officials who hold unswervingly to the United States Constitution, you wind up with a federal government, state government, country government, and local government that respects the Constitution.

Amazing how that works, isn't it? :)

When people elect anything else, however, their elected officials work hard to erode their Constitutional rights.

It is therefore up to We the People to dive into each and every local "legal" trap and tear it to smithereens, realigning it to match our United States Constitution, "the supreme Law of the Land" to the MAXIMUM extent possible, across all fronts.

When we do that, we will have a healthy country. If we fail to do that, our nation will crumble.

Yes. Saving our country is that simple, folks.

With this in mind, I want you to answer two questions:

Does Hillary Clinton respect and follow the United States Constitution?

Does Donald Trump respect and follow the United States Constitution?

When you can answer these two questions truthfully to yourself, you will have your answer as to who should be the next president. :)
 
Last edited:

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,428
Location
northern wis
Police should concentrate on their accuracy instead of worrying about caliber, and capacity. They need much less capacity if they would just stop the pray, and spray tactics. After all if 19 rounds of 20 miss the target what the heck is the purpose of having that many.

As should every body who carries a defensive firearm.
 
Top