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What problem does open carry solve?

WalkingWolf

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How many on our side really make this claim of nobody with a permit ever ever breaking the law?

I hear it as a straw man from opponents of RKBA quite often. Notably, I'm reading it hear from one who seems to have trouble mentioning CC on this board without some attempt to connect it to criminal conduct.

In Utah, the rate of revoking permits to carry has held steady at about 2 per 1000 (0.2%) annually. This is on par (probably a bit better but exact numbers are hard to get) with the rate at which sworn police officers lose their certification, that teachers lose their licenses, or that doctors lose their licenses. It is well below the rate of criminal conduct for the general public.




Assuming nobody saw the gun, assuming the off limits area wasn't using metal detectors, etc, etc, etc.



This assumes that someone actual notices the OCd firearm AND knows the laws well enough to know what is or isn't off limits.

We all know that a report of "Well I OC in x location all the time and have never been stopped/arrested/kicked-out" is not an authoritative or reliable method of determining what either law or private policy is. I can speed every day on the way to work for years before finally getting a ticket.

Frankly, if you have that many off limits locations in your State, the problem is lack of respect for RKBA, not the manner in which some choose to carry. Legally off limits locations should be very rare, should include metal detectors to be really secure rather than relying on the honor system, and should be well marked.

And yes, gun owners should obey the law regardless.

But, for the love of RKBA, stop trying so danged hard to connect lawful CC or CCC with criminal conduct. There is nothing inherently wrong with carrying a gun in a discrete manner. It is a personal, honorable choice that is entirely legal in many jurisdictions. It should be respected as such, rather than associated with criminal behavior.

Fifteen to 20 years ago, those opposed to RKBA argued that Utahns who wanted to carry a gun in public should OC so everyone would know who to avoid, to shun. That failed to defeat the liberalization of our concealed carry laws. Today, those same opponents of RKBA argue that guns should have to be kept concealed lest people become alarmed. It has become clear that OCers are not deterred by the rare social pressure that gun grabbers can bring. So now it is just back to whatever they can do to make lawful possession of a firearm less convenient, less common. It pains me to see self-proclaimed proponents of RKBA attacking either OC or CC/CCC as somehow untoward. You properly express great disgust against those who attack OC. Why do you join them in their methods by attacking CC/CCC by so often connecting it to criminal conduct?

Charles

Every school is a gun free zone for those without a permit, with a permit it is illegal to carry into a school, a court house, certain state government buildings, the post office. The fact is a well concealed firearm is not the same, or even close, as a openly carried firearm. A person with a concealed handgun looks just like a unarmed person, who can go in those places without hassle, or chance of.

As I already stated I know personally people who violated, and bragged about violating the law with permits. I know for a fact that every segment of society commits crimes, certain acts make committing crimes easier undetected. You cannot like facts, but you cannot change them. I am not attacking, get it through your thick skin, I am stating FACT!
 
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utbagpiper

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I am not attacking, get it through your thick skin, I am stating FACT!

You consistently choose to selective state "facts" that provide an excuse to tie lawful CCers to criminal conduct.

Why?

I will welcome a citation to your most recent post in which you unequivocally support CC or CCC as perfectly legitimate forms of exercising one's RKBA, without any allusion or hint to CCing being tied to criminal conduct. Such citation will prove that I am judging you unfairly on this matter. Lack of said citation will demonstrate my point of concern.

You should be bashing CCers any more than we want to see others attack OCers.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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You consistently choose to selective state "facts" that provide an excuse to tie lawful CCers to criminal conduct.

Why?

I will welcome a citation to your most recent post in which you unequivocally support CC or CCC as perfectly legitimate forms of exercising one's RKBA, without any allusion or hint to CCing being tied to criminal conduct. Such citation will prove that I am judging you unfairly on this matter. Lack of said citation will demonstrate my point of concern.

You should be bashing CCers any more than we want to see others attack OCers.

Charles

Please stop trying to play the martyr, it gets so pathetic.
 

Citizen

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Please stop trying to play the martyr, it gets so pathetic.

I agree it was pathetic. More than just playing the martyr, he's ham-handedly trying to make it look like you were saying something you clearly didn't.

You wrote about equal advantage. He was the one who put words in your mouth saying you were equating legal CC with criminals. Pretty obvious he was manufacturing an equivalency so he could use it against you.
 

solus

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my perspective regarding the piper has been stated previously and his behaviour is following true.

ipse
 

stealthyeliminator

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Texas
You seem to be the one pushing "perspective shift" yet come right back to what has been said - "legalizing" OC does not solve any problem. And certainly not the problem of some folks holding irrational beliefs and forcefully imposing them on others. "Abolishing" the conseuences of those irrational beliefs being forced on others does not solve either of the problems I see resulting from that enforcement: It does nothing to stop the irrational beliefs (there are days when I really wish I could go on a country-wide tour with a trunk full of aluminum clue bats). Worse, it does nothing to stop those people with irrational beliefs (including the uncontrollable need to force their irrational beliefs on others) from forcing their irrational beliefs on others in any but this tightly defined area.

stay safe.

Thank you for staying on topic :)

I can't tell if you're being hostile or not so I'll try to assume not. :) I'm not trying to push something here, just to share my thoughts.

I honestly think that passing an OC bill could very well result in progress in the areas you describe... I think that normalization could result in people dropping their belief that interference is justifiable.

I don't see how I'm coming right back to what everyone else said other than that I agree we don't need to justify OC by solving a problem with it, etc.

All I really wanted to do was look at it from another angle to shake things up a bit.

I think a change in perspective, or whatever we want to call it, can sometimes help people break free from the argumentative ruts that we often get in - both sides, those for and against OC. Sometimes a little change in perspective is all it takes for a lightbulb to click on. I want to give anti liberty folks as many lightbulb clicking opportunities as possible.

I just wanted to share my thoughts friendily.
 

utbagpiper

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How about advance equality as a foundational basis for rights?

Do disagree with equality being a foundational basis for rights?

I'm waiting for you to offer up a fully objective evidence that equality even exists before further debating you on that topic (which is off topic for this thread, btw).

I have many beliefs about society that I cannot substantiate objectively and were I to put most of them forward as a basis for social ordering, you'd call me out on the non-objective nature of those beliefs.

I'm simply abiding your desired debating paradigms by leaving you to first offer objective and rational evidence of equality--despite all the observations to the contrary--before presuming to use equality as a basis for any objective social order.

Feel free to PM me if you post such objective evidence in any of the threads. I'm not really following many of them now and would hate to not respond if you were to be polite enough to offer such objective evidence.

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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Please stop trying to play the martyr, it gets so pathetic.

I've not suggested you've attacked me personally, so I fail to see how I can credibly be charged with "play[ing] the martyr" except as some kind of poisoning the well, akin to calling someone a "bigot".

Can you provide citations to any (recent) posts you've made in support of CCing without making any connection to criminals or criminal conduct?

Or is my perception that you are using creative devices to attack CC while trying to stay just inside forum rules accurate?

Why are you so hostile to CC that every post from you on the subject that I can recall makes some ham-handed attempt to connect CC or CCers to criminals or criminal conduct?

Charles
 

Citizen

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@ WalkingWolf

I've not suggested you've attacked me personally, so I fail to see how I can credibly be charged with "play[ing] the martyr" except as some kind of poisoning the well, akin to calling someone a "bigot".

Can you provide citations to any (recent) posts you've made in support of CCing without making any connection to criminals or criminal conduct?

Or is my perception that you are using creative devices to attack CC while trying to stay just inside forum rules accurate?

Why are you so hostile to CC that every post from you on the subject that I can recall makes some ham-handed attempt to connect CC or CCers to criminals or criminal conduct?

Charles

Hey, WW. Check out the bold-face.

I used that term against Utbagpiper in post #24 above. Now, here he is turning it around and using it against you.

I noticed something earlier, but I didn't say it because 1) I wasn't 100% sure, and 2) I didn't want to have go digging all through a bunch of threads if I was called on to provide examples. I noticed it above in post #12. The one where he invents out of thin air the accusation that you are equating CC with criminals. Right or wrong, when I say him use that word equate, I remembered that I had used that against another recently, maybe him, I don't recall for sure.

But for some time, I've had this vague feeling he takes what others say and uses it against them. For example, when I don't "speak to him" in a post where I quoted him, he accuses me of not treating him like an equal. Its like one of his standard tactics is to turn somebody else's words against them (or in this case another--you).

Have you noticed this tactic? Am I just dreaming? I'm not so much discussing him personally as I am the tactic.
 

WalkingWolf

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Hey, WW. Check out the bold-face.

I used that term against Utbagpiper in post #24 above. Now, here he is turning it around and using it against you.

I noticed something earlier, but I didn't say it because 1) I wasn't 100% sure, and 2) I didn't want to have go digging all through a bunch of threads if I was called on to provide examples. I noticed it above in post #12. The one where he invents out of thin air the accusation that you are equating CC with criminals. Right or wrong, when I say him use that word equate, I remembered that I had used that against another recently, maybe him, I don't recall for sure.

But for some time, I've had this vague feeling he takes what others say and uses it against them. For example, when I don't "speak to him" in a post where I quoted him, he accuses me of not treating him like an equal. Its like one of his standard tactics is to turn somebody else's words against them (or in this case another--you).

Have you noticed this tactic? Am I just dreaming? I'm not so much discussing him personally as I am the tactic.

Yes I have, I have come to consider the source. I find most members honorable here such as yourself, the rest I make my point, and then stop playing their game.
 

utbagpiper

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Yes I have, I have come to consider the source. I find most members honorable here such as yourself, the rest I make my point, and then stop playing their game.

You find his attempt to exert control over skidmark's opinions based on a donation to skid's defense fund to be "honorable"?!?!?

That explains a lot about your sense of values.

I notice you have failed to provide a single link to any of your posts defending CC as a right, without tying the practice to criminals or criminal conduct. The closest I can recall is a post or two where you claim the 2nd amendment doesn't protect a right to CC, but claim the right to CC is protected by other portions of the constitution.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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You find his attempt to exert control over skidmark's opinions based on a donation to skid's defense fund to be "honorable"?!?!?

That explains a lot about your sense of values.

I notice you have failed to provide a single link to any of your posts defending CC as a right, without tying the practice to criminals or criminal conduct. The closest I can recall is a post or two where you claim the 2nd amendment doesn't protect a right to CC, but claim the right to CC is protected by other portions of the constitution.

Charles
Kiss my backside, your continued attempts to get members into long standing boorish feuds is longstanding. To be honest, I try to IGNORE you as much as possible, and you can shove your demands. YOU are rude, and do not have the power to order members to post anything. If I post a fact you can ask for a cite, just going about demanding cites to keep the fire burning is repulsive.

Have you ever wondered why you have such a difficult time getting along with others here?
 
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utbagpiper

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Have you noticed this tactic? Am I just dreaming? I'm not so much discussing him personally as I am the tactic.

Ah yes. The discussion of "tactics". You certainly are an expert at disagreeable tactics.

I find "tactics" are usually right down there with complaints about being "too verbose" or even excessive complaints about spelling. When one is unable to discuss the topic at hand, turn to denigrating how the other person discusses the topic.

Kind of like the old saw about court: If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the facts are not on your side, pound the law. If the facts and law are both against you, pound the table.

Keep pounding your hammer of government being evil and Charles having evil tactics.
 

Citizen

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You find his attempt to exert control over skidmark's opinions based on a donation to skid's defense fund to be "honorable"?!?!?

Oh? So, slapping Skid's face for being needlessly antagonistic and insulting is now an attempt to control his opinions?

Exaggerate much?
 

WalkingWolf

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Oh? So, slapping Skid's face for being needlessly antagonistic and insulting is now an attempt to control his opinions?

Exaggerate much?

I have come to learn that he antagonizes long arguments, seems to be for the sake of arguing and inflating his own ego. NOW he is sticking his nose in to try to further poke the both of you so he can possibly gain an ally. The same thing he did with a certain liberty hating LEO, that admitted to telling non truths.
 

utbagpiper

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Kiss my backside, your continued attempts to get members into long standing boorish feuds is longstanding. To be honest, I try to IGNORE you as much as possible, and you can shove your demands. YOU are rude, and do not have the power to order members to post anything. If I post a fact you can ask for a cite, just going about demanding cites to keep the fire burning is repulsive.

Your incivility speaks for itself.

Have you ever wondered why you have such a difficult time getting along with others here?

You probably haven't noticed but with the exception of you and a handful of anarchists or anti-religious bigots (who can't seem to leave off topic subjects off a pro-RKBA board), I get along fine with most folks, including quite a few where we regularly disagree. But a few of you have such enormous egos that you can't take the slightest disagreement as anything other than a challenge to your manhood.

At least in your case you probably come by that trait honestly and of necessity given your past profession as a cop. You might notice many of the cops who post here have problems getting along. We had one on the Utah section a couple years back that was particularly bad. That you and they differ on some aspects of RKBA doesn't change the underlying symptom.

Now, if you want to ignore me, please do. Avoid posting inane anti-government comments to threads in the Utah section only to get butt sore when a single question forces you to spin 180 degrees. And maybe learn from your last mistaken attempt to start a thread for the sole purpose of attacking my verbose "style" as you favor bumper sticker posts and logic.

Your user name is very apt. You are the walking embodiment of much of what is wrong with the RKBA "community". With 95% agreement on RKBA, you'll take 5% disagreement, make it personal, and carry it forever, rather than working together where there is agreement. You can't see the 5% as good faith disagreement, or even mistake. Nope. To you it is personal affront, malice of the worst kind, high treason against your theology. Thankfully, your numbers are small and shrinking as mature and sensible men recognize what is needed to make social, political, and judicial advances to our RKBA.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Oh? So, slapping Skid's face for being needlessly antagonistic and insulting is now an attempt to control his opinions?

Bringing up your monetary donation was beyond the pale. If you do not know that, and do not understand exactly why such a thing should never have been mentioned, you are more lacking in social skills and understanding that the most autistic engineering savant in Silicon Valley. Of course, such a gross lack of social understanding would explain mistaken belief that anarchy would be a better form for society than government.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I have come to learn that he antagonizes long arguments, seems to be for the sake of arguing and inflating his own ego. NOW he is sticking his nose in to try to further poke the both of you so he can possibly gain an ally. The same thing he did with a certain liberty hating LEO, that admitted to telling non truths.

Sure, because skid is the kind of guy who would ally with anyone over such a thing.

It seems you think as poorly of him as does Citizen.

I've been on the receiving end of some of skidmark's pointed observations. And shall be again. Sometimes I have to agree with him. Oft-times I don't. But he doesn't make it a long standing feud, generally manages to speak his peace without making it personal, and otherwise conducts himself as a mature, sensible adult.

Some of you guys really need to get off the board a little more often.

Charles
 
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