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Open and Concealed Carry in a County Extension Office

gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
Over the years, I must have been asked a dozen times, "Can a County Extension Office ban guns?" I aways replied something like, "Ah, I don't know. Aren't they part of the University of Ky. and if they are,they probably can." I never thought much about it and never investigated. I had other things to do. A few days ago I was able to get this picture from the Bath Co. Extension Office.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4p0eiti2ycm2xg8/Screenshot%202018-10-09%20at%2001.56.42.png?dl=0

I started looking around and found KRS 164.605 thru 164.675, where it says:

There is hereby authorized for each county an extension district whose boundaries shall
be coexistent with the county boundaries. Such districts may be created by the fiscal court
of the county. Each extension district shall constitute a governmental subdivision of the
Commonwealth and a public body corporate.


Did you see that?
Such districts may be created by the fiscal court of the county.

KRS 164.655 says:

The extension board of each extension district shall have the following powers and
duties:
(4) With the advice of the extension council, to make and adopt such rules and
regulations not inconsistent with the law as it may deem necessary for its own
government in the transaction of the business of the extension district;
of the county.


Hell these things are nothing more that "Special Districts". On Monday I got my 2018 property tax bill from the county, and sure enough, in the list of all the taxes for the library, the landfill, the schools, the health dept etc. was "Extension Office". All of this means that these are 120 public offices governed by 120 public boards and they all are subject to KRS 65.870 and can't have any rules, policies or regulations about guns. What about UK you ask. , KRS 164.610 defines the "Purpose" of the Extension Offices like this:

In enacting KRS 164.605 to 164.675, it is the intention of the General Assembly to
provide for aid in disseminating among the people of Kentucky useful and practical
information on subjects relating to agriculture, home economics, and rural and
community life and to encourage the application of the same in the several counties of the
Commonwealth through extension work to be carried on in cooperation with the
University of Kentucky College of Agriculture
and Home Economics, and the United
States Department of Agriculture as provided in the Act of Congress May 8, 1914, as
amended by Public Law 83 of the 83rd Congress.


So you see, the Extension service only "cooperates" with UK.

I have come to understand that there is a "Memorandum of Understanding" between each separate county extension office and UK that the offices will enforce the University's gun ban on the extension premises. Before 2013 that might have been OK because the old 65.870 didn't apply to these offices, but when KRS 65.870 was passed that became illegal. The university can't order the county extension offices to violate the law; and if they did order it, the offices cannot legally comply with that order.

The chairman of the Bath Co. Board of Extension is very pro-gun. He will be attending a meeting of the 20 Regional Board Chairmen of the offices in Region #1, later this month and has told me he will be bringing this up. This Region includes Bath, Boyd, Bracken, Carter, Elliott, Fleming, Floyd, Greenup, Johnson, Lawrence, Lewis, Magoffin, Martin, Mason, Menifee, Montgomery, Morgan, Pike, Robertson and Rowan Counties. He intends to bring this up during this meeting and letting these other 19 Board Chairmen know that they can no longer ban guns. That still leaves 100 that need to be checked and possibly educated.I can use some help. I can contact the Boards, if I knew which oners actually ban guns. The Office in my home county has never had a gun ban that I know about. The Office in Jefferson Co. is located in a Metro building in Middletown so is subject to the Metro ordinance banning "Concealed Weapons".
 

color of law

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The
"Memorandum of Understanding" between each separate county extension office and UK that the offices will enforce the University's gun ban on the extension premises.
would be illegal. KRS 164.620 makes clear that "Each extension district shall constitute a governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate." UK cannot enforce their prejudices on any "governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate." All board members must comply with KRS 164.650(5) "All members of the extension board shall take and sign the usual oath of public officers."

I'm just say'n.
 

gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
The
"Memorandum of Understanding" between each separate county extension office and UK that the offices will enforce the University's gun ban on the extension premises.
would be illegal. KRS 164.620 makes clear that "Each extension district shall constitute a governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate." UK cannot enforce their prejudices on any "governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate." All board members must comply with KRS 164.650(5) "All members of the extension board shall take and sign the usual oath of public officers."

I'm just say'n.

UK was not "enforcing their prejudices" on anybody or forced any policy on anybody. Where are you getting that idea? Certainly from nothing I wrote. I cannot understand why you persist in twisting things into something that they are not. There is nothing illegal about the "Memorandum of Understanding".

Now, implementation of it after Jan. 14, 2013 would be illegal, but the agreement itself is not illegal. The boards were banning guns voluntarily, in "cooperation" with UK policy and with this "understanding", albeit with some urging from UK. There was no "enforc(ing) their prejudices" involved. Until 2013, it was NOT illegal for an extention office to ban guns. Only when preemption was made to include public boards would there be any problem. UK was not in any hurry, nor were they under any obligation, to advise the county offices that they no longer could prohibit guns. The "Memorandum of Understanding" can stay in place, it just has to be ignored by the county office.

The board of many of these offices have very little access to legal advice and they just continued what had been done for years. Most of these men and women are farmers or homemakers, not attorneys or politicians and had no idea that they are committing a crime or violating any oaths. The board chairman that I have been talking to, has no internet access, has no computer and uses only a flip phone with no text capibilities. He says that he has never used a computer and has no desire to use one. There is no wired or wireless internet anywhere near his farm. He is 72 years old, a retired Lt. Colonel and farms 2500 acres of land in Bath Co. The first time I got him on the phone, I interrupted his efforts to load a bull into a truck. These people are not paid politicians. They are just plain citizens trying to help other citizens and farmers by dissiminating information from the state College of Agriculture and were just trying to be cooperative with the University's "requests".

I can't speak for Ohio, but it is not all that unusual for a city or county official in Ky. to violate a gun law, even though they have taken and signed an oath to the contrary. Most of them do it knowingly. I wonder why you find it remarkable that a farmer might do it and not even know it.
 
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color of law

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I am not blaming the old farmers. I’m blaming the university.

The university knew they had no authority outside their jurisdiction. For the university to approach the "District cooperative extension service board" or "extension board" asking them to enter into a "Memorandum of Understanding" would be in conflict with section 164.655(2). “Extension board,” powers and duties states at 164.655(2) says “To enter into an annual memorandum of agreement with the extension service and the extension district. This memorandum of agreement shall set forth the policy pertaining to (a) appointment of personnel to serve in the district, (b) financing of extension work in the district, and (c) responsibilities of the cooperating parties in planning and executing the program;”

164.615(4) defines "Extension service’ means the cooperative extension service in agriculture and home economics of the College of Agriculture of the University of Kentucky and the United States Department of Agriculture;”

Guns would not fall within (a) appointment of personnel to serve in the district, (b) financing of extension work in the district, and (c) responsibilities of the cooperating parties in planning and executing the program.

Remember, you quoted 164.655(4) - With the advice of the extension council, to make and adopt such rules and regulations not inconsistent with the law as it may deem necessary for its own government in the transaction of the business of the extension district.

The "extension board" would execute the "annual memorandum of agreement" not the university.
 

OC for ME

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Messages
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White Oak Plantation
UK could've not renewed the MoU...and they have computers and such high tech stuff...post 2013. Get UK to contact the other 100 boards to "recommend" that we all comply with KRS.
 

gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
UK could've not renewed the MoU...and they have computers and such high tech stuff...post 2013. Get UK to contact the other 100 boards to "recommend" that we all comply with KRS.
Well, golly gee whiz. Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it was because UK is one of the most anti-gun entities in the state and has no interest in seeing this resolved.

It is responses like this that make me wish I'd never posted the OP. I didn't ask for any assistence or any fresh ideas, I just thought some of our members might want to know what is happening in the advancement of our gun rights in Ky. I am certain this issue will be resolved, as it should be, and that no assistence from UK will be forthcoming.
 
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Bill Starks

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Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
I had the wife drive by the extension office here in Hopkins County and I was told there was a guns sign on the entrance but she never got close enough to see if it was a total ban sign or just concealed carry. I'll be up that way Thursday afternoon and will take a closer look.
 
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gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
I had the wife drive by the extension office here in Hopkins County and I was told there was a guns sign on the entrance but she never got close enough to see if it was a total ban sign or just concealed carry. I'll be up that way Thursday afternoon and will take a closer look.
I doesn't really matter, they can't do either. Can you get pictures of the signs, the door(or whatever the sign is on) and the building, Bill?
 

OC for ME

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Well, golly gee whiz. Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it was because UK is one of the most anti-gun entities in the state and has no interest in seeing this resolved.

It is responses like this that make me wish I'd never posted the OP. I didn't ask for any assistence or any fresh ideas, I just thought some of our members might want to know what is happening in the advancement of our gun rights in Ky. I am certain this issue will be resolved, as it should be, and that no assistence from UK will be forthcoming.
As of 6:46 AM CDT: There are currently 524 users online. 14 members and 510 guests.

Perhaps there are guests that have/will read this thread and contact UK regarding their firearms policies and UK's efforts to comply with KRS.
 

gutshot II

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Location
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As of 6:46 AM CDT: There are currently 524 users online. 14 members and 510 guests.

Perhaps there are guests that have/will read this thread and contact UK regarding their firearms policies and UK's efforts to comply with KRS.

Once again, and again and again, you miss the point. You miss the point so often that I begin to think that either you are missing the point intentionally or that you will never be able to get the point. Let me approcah this from a different perspective and see if you will/can comprehend.

UK is not in violation of any law. I, and many others, have begged UK to change their gun policies for years. Their policies are lawful and they have no intentions of changing them no matter how many people call or write them asking for that outcome. That was never my objective in contacting Bath Co. Extention officials and was never the objective of posting this on OCDO. The only way that UK's policies will be changed are with actions by the General Assembly. We can not force them to change those policies. The General Assembly will not be in session until Jan. 7, 2019. Lets try to confine this discussion to the present day and the achievable. This OP is about convincing Bath Co. Extention to change their gun policies. That is achievable. Let's confine our discussion to that topic.

The problem here is Bath Co. Extention. They are in violation of the law. We can force them to change their policies and will do so if and when we decide that we cannot convince them to do so voluntarily. We don't need any new strageies, ideas or insightful interepations of any statutes or constitutional issues. We have the legal tools in place to achieve this and we will do so. Convincing people that they must change comes slowly. It takes time for them to get used to new things and come to the realization that they MUST comply. Governments and it agencies can not act quickly. That is intentional. The next meeting of the board of Bath Co. Extention is on Dec. 11. This issue cannot and will not be resolved before that date. The people that I am talking to can not act unilaterally. There must be a vote by the board. I am reasonablly certain that will happen.

UK plays no role here. They, much like you, are merely observers. They probably, like you, have a desired outcome, but they cannot dictate that outcome. The General Assembly took that option away from them in 2012, at the request of me and other people like me. We have this covered. Let's try to stay on point. These problems are never solved by expanding to focus to more targets, more laws or constitutional issues. They are solved by narrowing the discussion and backing your opponent into a legal corner from which he cannot escape. It does not happen overnight.

If you would like to start your own thread about attempts by you and others to get UK's policies changed I would enjoy reading and commenting on that thread. This one is about something else. I ask you to focus on that and not misdirect or highjack my post.
 
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OC for ME

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Is the term extension defined differently in the KRS? Bath Co. Extension is a extension of UK if I read KRS 164.615 correctly, I could be reading it incorrectly. If the Bath Co. Extension Service is not a extension of UK then it seems reasonable to conclude that UK is not in violation of KRS.

https://bath.ca.uky.edu/content/about-us

Encouraging Bath Co. Extension Service to comply with the KRS is certainly a more achievable goal in the near term.
 

gutshot II

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Location
Central Ky.
Is the term extension defined differently in the KRS? Bath Co. Extension is a extension of UK if I read KRS 164.615 correctly, I could be reading it incorrectly. If the Bath Co. Extension Service is not a extension of UK then it seems reasonable to conclude that UK is not in violation of KRS.

https://bath.ca.uky.edu/content/about-us

Encouraging Bath Co. Extension Service to comply with the KRS is certainly a more achievable goal in the near term.

All of this is explained fully in the OP.
 
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color of law

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Is the term extension defined differently in the KRS? Bath Co. Extension is a extension of UK if I read KRS 164.615 correctly, I could be reading it incorrectly. If the Bath Co. Extension Service is not a extension of UK then it seems reasonable to conclude that UK is not in violation of KRS.

https://bath.ca.uky.edu/content/about-us

Encouraging Bath Co. Extension Service to comply with the KRS is certainly a more achievable goal in the near term.

https://qpublic.schneidercorp.com/A...D=8142&Q=1877467965&KeyValue=054-00-00-003.02
Parcel Number 054-00-00-003.02
Account Number 40605
Location Address 2914 W HWY 60
Description 5.01 AC BLDGS & HOOP BARNS
Class EXEMPT COUNTY (93)
Tax District 00 Bath County
Rate Per Thousand 1.12206

Ownership
BATH COUNTY EXTENSION DISTRICT BOARD

2914 E HWY 36
OWINGSVILLE, KY 40360

164.615 Definitions for KRS 164.605 to 164.675.
As used in KRS 164.605 to 164.675, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1)"Cooperative extension service district" or "extension district" means the district authorized by KRS 164.620;

KRS 164.620 makes clear that "There is hereby authorized for each county an extension district whose boundaries shall be coexistent with the county boundaries. Such districts may be created by the fiscal court of the county. Each extension district shall constitute a governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate."

UK attempts to make it appear the building belongs to them. https://bath.ca.uky.edu/content/about-us

Yet, the property record says otherwise.

No wonder the building has a "no guns" sticker on the door.
 

gutshot II

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https://qpublic.schneidercorp.com/A...D=8142&Q=1877467965&KeyValue=054-00-00-003.02


164.615 Definitions for KRS 164.605 to 164.675.
As used in KRS 164.605 to 164.675, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1)"Cooperative extension service district" or "extension district" means the district authorized by KRS 164.620;

KRS 164.620 makes clear that "There is hereby authorized for each county an extension district whose boundaries shall be coexistent with the county boundaries. Such districts may be created by the fiscal court of the county. Each extension district shall constitute a governmental subdivision of the Commonwealth and a public body corporate."

UK attempts to make it appear the building belongs to them. https://bath.ca.uky.edu/content/about-us

Yet, the property record says otherwise.

No wonder the building has a "no guns" sticker on the door.

I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence. Do you think that the board members don't know who has title to the building? The sign is actually on a window, next to the door.

All of the other information in your post was available to anyone that read my OP.

Just as I have been saying all along, this is nothing more than any other "Special Taxing District", like a library or Volunteer Fire District. UK does exert a lot of influence. The employees all have "uk.edu" extentions on their email addresses. I have not yet determined if they are county employees or UK employees. It doesn't matter for my purposes. You have to remember that these signs and policies have been in place for decades and they were legal until Jan. of 2013. The change in the preemption law hasn't gotten through all the UK BS and into Bath Co.Extension Service, yet.

We are at post #15 in this thread and both you and OC for ME are now telling me back the same information that I posted in post #1. Thank you very much for the assistence. Why do you two keep posting the same information that I have posted several posts before you? Are you so anxious to post that you don't bother to read what has already been posted. Maybe after I post that the board has voted to rescind their "No Guns" policy, you two can post that UK has no authority over that building. Try to keep up.
 

gutshot II

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I have been working on this ever since I found out about it. It has been tough work. I was first told that the University of Ky. had ordered those signs put up and I had to get proof that that was just BS. Then I had to convince the Board of the county office that the law said that they couldn't do it. The truth is that nobody knew why those signs were up. They were up because they had always been up and nobody knew who put them up or when they were put up. Anyway, I spoke with the chairman of the board of the Bath Co. extension office today. At a meeting last week, the board members voted to rescind the "No Guns" policy and remove all signs restricting guns from the property. The Bath Co. extension office now has no policy on the possession of firearms and ammunition on any property controlled by the board. I am trying to get a picture of the front of the building showing the empty space where the sign used to be.
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Good work. I would still be worried that the policy is still in effect, just no longer backed up with a sign.

Those willing to break the law in an overt way would also be willing to break it in a more subtle way.
 

gutshot II

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There was nothing overt about this. These people were 100% ignorant of the law and almost everyone involved wanted guns in the office. The chairman of the board is as pro-gun as I am. They had been convinced that the University of Ky. had ordered the gun ban. Once I showed them a copy of the law and showed the open records that I had obtained from UK saying that the university had no legal ownership rights in the building, they were glad to change the policy. I also have a copy of the meeting minutes when the vote was taken to rescind the policy. Unless they have counterfeited some fake minutes, I'd say this is legitimate.
Ky. is a very gun friendly state. Most of the residents are very gun friendly. Those residents make up many of the public boards and commissions that control our public buildings. When this was over, everybody I talked to was thanking me for bringing it to their attention. That is not uncommon.
 
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