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Serial Number Search (Gun Trace)

OC for ME

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Yes, it is legal it seems to run your firearm serial number for a busted license plate light bulb (Traffic Offense - code 5499)

ATF Form 3312.1 - National Tracing Center Trace Request and NCIC Code Manual as of September 30, 2018 - Uniform Offense Data Codes

Example
Material witness (state/local) - code 1701
Possess marijuana (Colorado?) - code 3562
Gambling (office fantasy football pool?) - code 3999, or Transmit Wager Information (dude, put me in the pool, I'll give you the 5 bucks tomorrow at work) - code 3920
Weapon offense (generic term) - code 5299
Liquor (home brew) - code 4199 ( https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/alcoholic-beverage/ )
Obstructing Police (variations thereof) - code 4899
Gratuity - code 5109
Public Peace (unlawful assembly) - code 5307
Trespassing - -code 5707
Conservation - code 6299
Public order crimes - code 7399
It seems that current technology, and state/local/federal LEA collusion, could make this process conclude relatively quickly now that ATF is digitizing paper form 4473 received from defunct FFLs and the wide spread use of e4473 for the past five or so years.
 

MSG Laigaie

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I have firearms without serial numbers or roll marks of any kind. On those that I carry consistently, such as stainless when it rains, steel when it does not, I protect the serial number with a strategically placed strip of duct tape. Do they, under this, have the authority (not Right) to strip my tape and run my numbers anyway?
 

OC for ME

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Of course they do...search incident to arrest. If a anti-2A cop has you in his sights a busted light bulb, in some states, Missouri for one, is an arrestable offense. Just cuz it is called a "infraction" in the text of the statute does not mean that a custodial arrest cannot be made. Taking you down to the Gray Bar hotel remains a option for any cop.

Research your state's statutes to see if a cop can arrest you for a busted light bulb on your POV.
 

color of law

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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Yes, it is legal it seems to run your firearm serial number for a busted license plate light bulb (Traffic Offense - code 5499)

ATF Form 3312.1 - National Tracing Center Trace Request and NCIC Code Manual as of September 30, 2018 - Uniform Offense Data Codes

ExampleIt seems that current technology, and state/local/federal LEA collusion, could make this process conclude relatively quickly now that ATF is digitizing paper form 4473 received from defunct FFLs and the wide spread use of e4473 for the past five or so years.
There does not exist a 2C section on the form to fill out with NCIC Crime Code. However, if a check is to happen it must happen under 1B - Urgent (Justification required).
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/national-tracing-center-trace-request-atf-form-33121/download

For urgent one of the following must be involved.
1 - Assault
2 - Bank Robbery
3 - Kidnapping
4 - Murder/Suicide
5 - Rape/Sex
6 - Terrorist Act
7 - Terrorist Threat
8 - Other (specify circumstance)

"Other" does not include a burned out license plate bulb.

Detaining a person for a traffic offense then do a gun trace would violate Supreme Court precedence.
 
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OC for ME

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There does not exist a 2C section on the form to fill out with NCIC Crime Code. However, if a check is to happen it must happen under 1B - Urgent (Justification required).
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/national-tracing-center-trace-request-atf-form-33121/download

For urgent one of the following must be involved.
1 - Assault
2 - Bank Robbery
3 - Kidnapping
4 - Murder/Suicide
5 - Rape/Sex
6 - Terrorist Act
7 - Terrorist Threat
8 - Other (specify circumstance)

"Other" does not include a burned out license plate bulb.

Detaining a person for a traffic offense then do a gun trace would violate Supreme Court precedence.
Typo, 2a is the box for the NCIC Crime Code**.

I did not address box 1b.
It seems that current technology, and state/local/federal LEA collusion, could make this process conclude relatively quickly ...

Search incident to arrest. https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-04/15-search-incident-to-arrest.html

In MO a traffic stop is a arrest.
Your state may be different.

I do not subscribe to detainment vs. arrest where I am not free to go as I please. Those who accept the "detainment" premise likely accept the "consensual contact" premise.
 

since9

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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Research your state's statutes to see if a cop can arrest you for a busted light bulb on your POV.

Short answer: Yes, but highly unlikely. In fact, cases have been tossed because the cop arrested someone on a petty offense because they gave the cop some attitude.

Colorado Revised Statutes

16-2-101. Misdemeanor and petty offense procedures - statement of purpose. In
order to provide a simple and expeditious method for the prosecution of misdemeanors and petty
offenses in county courts but one which also guarantees to the defendant his constitutional rights,
the general assembly does hereby establish a simplified criminal procedure for misdemeanors
and petty offenses to be used under the circumstances set forth in this code in sections 16-2-102
to 16-2-114.

16-2-112. Arrest followed by a complaint. If a peace officer makes an arrest without a
warrant of a person for a misdemeanor or a petty offense, the arrested person shall be taken
without unnecessary delay before the nearest available county or district judge. Thereafter, a
complaint shall be filed immediately in the county court having jurisdiction of the offense and a
copy thereof given to the defendant at or before the time he is arraigned. The provisions of this
section are subject to the right of the arresting authority to release the arrested person pursuant to
section 16-3-105.

16-2-201. Penalty assessment procedure. (1) When a person is arrested for a class 2
petty offense, the arresting officer may either give the person a penalty assessment notice and
release him upon its terms or take him before a judge of the county court in the county in which
the alleged offense occurred. The choice of procedures shall be based upon circumstances which
reasonably persuade the officer that the alleged offender is likely or unlikely to comply with the
terms of the penalty assessment notice. Such circumstances may include the officer
accompanying the offender to a post office or mailbox and witnessing the deposit in the mail of
the notice with payment of the fine attached.

Article 3, Part I - Authority of Peace Officers to Make an Arrest:

16-3-101. Arrest - when and how made. (1) An arrest may be made on any day and at
any time of the day or night.
(2) All necessary and reasonable force may be used in making an arrest.
(3) All necessary and reasonable force may be used to effect an entry upon any building
or property or part thereof to make an authorized arrest.

16-3-102. Arrest by peace officer. (1) A peace officer may arrest a person when:
(a) He has a warrant commanding that such person be arrested; or
(b) Any crime has been or is being committed by such person in his presence; or
(c) He has probable cause to believe that an offense was committed

PART 2: Authority of Person Not a Peace Officer to Make an Arrest

16-3-201. Arrest by a private person. A person who is not a peace officer may arrest
another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the
presence of the person making the arrest.

*NOTE: Essentially, part (b) of 16-3-102

16-3-202. Assisting peace officer - arrest - furnishing information - immunity. (1) A
peace officer making an arrest may command the assistance of any person who is in the vicinity.
(2) A person commanded to assist a peace officer has the same authority to arrest as the
officer who commands his assistance.
(3) A person commanded to assist a peace officer in making an arrest shall not be civilly
or criminally liable for any reasonable conduct in aid of the officer or for any acts expressly
directed by the officer.
(4) Private citizens, acting in good faith, shall be immune from any civil liability for
reporting to any police officer or law enforcement authority the commission or suspected
commission of any crime or for giving other information to aid in the prevention of any crime.

16-3-203. Preventing a crime - reimbursement. Any person who is not a peace officer
as defined in section 24-31-301 (5), C.R.S., who is made the defendant in any civil action as a
result of having sought to prevent a crime being committed against any other person, and who
has judgment entered in his favor shall be entitled to all his court costs and to reasonable
attorney fees incurred in such action.

*NOTE: I could not find a clear definition of petty offense in CRS, so here's the definition from Attorneys.com:

Felonies and misdemeanors are two classifications of crimes used in most states, with petty offenses being the third. Petty offenses are sometimes called violations and are usually punished by a fine with no jail time. They are often handled by magistrates in municipal courts and the entire process rarely takes longer than a day. A defendant is notified that he's being charged with a petty offense by issuance of a ticket, which specifies the court date and the fine that will be judged. Jury trials are not available for petty offenses.

Misdemeanors are punishable by more substantial fines and sometimes jail time, usually less than one year. Any jail term would most likely be served in a local or county jail, rather than a state or federal correctional institution. Like the petty offense, misdemeanors are usually adjudicated in a shortened trial, where defendants do not have the right to court-appointed lawyers if they can't afford one. Jury trials can be available, depending upon the type of misdemeanor alleged.

Felonies are the most serious type of crime and are often classified by degrees, with a first degree felony being the most serious. Many states require that a prosecutor obtain an indictment from a grand jury before charging someone with a felony. Felonies are punishable by substantial fines and prison sentences in excess of one year. If you are convicted of felony, you will most likely serve your jail time in a state or federal correctional institution. The court must provide an accused person with an attorney if he or she cannot afford one. A jury trial is also available for a felony prosecution. Other constitutional rights such as the right to a speedy trial are also involved when a person is charged with a felony.

Conviction of a felony brings with it more disadvantages than just higher fines and longer jail time. In some states, persons convicted of felonies cannot serve on juries, or purchase or possess firearms and may not be employed in certain professions, such as law, teaching, or the military.
 
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OC for ME

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Short answer: Yes, but highly unlikely. In fact, cases have been tossed because the cop arrested someone on a petty offense because they gave the cop some attitude.

...
Then a short response would have been appropriate. But, the point is not about being arrested for a busted tail light then the cop running your gats serial number. The point is - what penalty can be assessed against a anti-2A cop for running your gats serial number under the authority of a petty offense (busted tail light).

Holding cops to account is the goal...even for the most trivial of offenses by the cop. Training by a thousand cuts is how we return LE to acting within their constitutional boundaries.
 

solus

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here nc
Short answer: Yes, but highly unlikely. In fact, cases have been tossed because the cop arrested someone on a petty offense because they gave the cop some attitude.

snipppp...rhetoric not germane

While the judicial system 'tosses' the citizen's case, that fact does not change the event the nice LE takes control of a citizen's firearm under the auspices of 'officer safety' and runs the citizen's firearm basically under false pretenses, which ultimately still puts the firearm's s/n into the NCIC system showing it was 'run' in the past by a LE agency.

Further, as articulated previously on this forum, a local young lady (late twenties) purchased a SD pistol from a well known LGS, couple weeks later got stopped on a Saturday night by an 'alert' deputy, who took [insisted under officer safety threats] her gun from her vehicle w/o her permission, and ran the s/n in NCIC.

It came back stolen! She was forcibly dragged from her vehicle and handcuffed in front of her young children, arrested, and immediately taken to jail as her children were basically left and held in the vehicle until a 'female' deputy took custody of them, who transported the children to the station where relatives were finally located them right as CPServices arrived to take custody of them. The woman sat in jail Sunday through Tuesday before detectives investigating the case could contact the LGS where it was determine it was a consignment sale, and detectives finally on Wed made contact with the previous owner!

OH SORRY, was allegedly the only comment the former owner of the firearm who consigned the firearm to the LGS, didn't mention the firearm was reported stolen, but 'I only misplaced it,' guess i failed to tell the LE agency i found it!
[sidebar, no LE agency investigated if the previous owner participated in insurance fraud]

The woman was released the following Wed afternoon w/o an apology or we will assure your arrest record is completely cleared comment.

[BTW no second hand hearsay in the tale regaled as I was fortunately enough to personally talk, a week or so after, to the woman at length with her immediately family members present]

Sorry, LE citizen stops is, as always a debatable subject and 'officer safety' is one thing, but the common practice of running the firearm to see if it is stolen is quite another practice which i do not agree with and believe should be unequivocally stopped and officers held accountable for their indiscretions, now, how to change the existing pervasive culture is an even more difficult subject to address.
 

OC for ME

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Wait!! I thought a 3312.1 had to filed before a gun came up as being stolen....another case that confirms that QI leads to/enables cops abusing the law abiding citizenry. Ironic, a cop steals your gun for his safety then runs the number just cuz he can...cuz it's in his hand. Not a dang thing you can do about it either. A serial number search must only be conducted under the authority of a search warrant issued by a judge.
 

solus

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Wait!! I thought a 3312.1 had to filed before a gun came up as being stolen....another case that confirms that QI leads to/enables cops abusing the law abiding citizenry. Ironic, a cop steals your gun for his safety then runs the number just cuz he can...cuz it's in his hand. Not a dang thing you can do about it either. A serial number search must only be conducted under the authority of a search warrant issued by a judge.

Actually, my ‘conversations’ with LE friends [checking further references at the moment and will amend in a few] the nice LEs run the firearms through NCIC under their perception of RAS the firearm is accessible and in the open, as well as handed to them by the citizen and just might/could/was stolen or used in a crime. Therefore, in their minds, no judicial authority is needed per se.

[note to self...tryind to discern viable information about NCIC (besides Wiki) is like trying to peel the smell off of waste matter discharged from someone’s bowels]

added: stink getting worse,
https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm
Data in NCIC files is exchanged with and for the official use of authorized officials of the Federal Government, the States, cities, penal and other institutions, and certain foreign governments.

The data is exchanged through NCIC lines to Federal criminal justice agencies, criminal justice agencies in the 50 States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, U.S. Possessions and U.S. Territories.

In addition, information may be released to the news media and the public pursuant to 28 CFR 50.2, unless it is determined that release of the specific information in the context of a particular case would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;

To a Member of Congress or staff acting upon the member's behalf whom the member or staff requests the information on behalf of and at the request of the individual who is the subject of the record; and,


 
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HP995

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MO, USA
my ‘conversations’ with LE friends ... the nice LEs ...

:D I've been really busy and these are the very first words I read in these forums for a few days. "The nice LEs" - cracked me up. Well done. I know the feeling.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Messages
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Location
Philipsburg, Montana
A serial number search must only be conducted under the authority of a search warrant issued by a judge.

as well as handed to them by the citizen
1. Tape over your SN. Warrant needed to remove it.

2. NEVER hand your firearm to a LEO. Let them remove it from your holster. But, IMHO the safest place for your firearm for everyone concerned is IN YOUR HOLSTER.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
From a LEO point of view if one has legal access to the firearm then one would be able to run the serial number.

From a personnel point of view I never ran serial numbers unless I had a reason to believe they might be stolen.

Some department have policies that that require all firearms that they come in contact with have their serial numbers check.

A bit over board IMHO.

As far as needing a warrant to remove a piece of tape to access a serial number of a firearm that one as legal access to would be a far stretch.

The real question is do you have legal access to the firearm in the first place.

The most likely scenario would be the court ruling that covering the serial number would be a reason alone to check if it was stolen.

It would be a kin to stopping a vehicle and seeing the VIN covered with tape.

As long as it was a legitimate stop one would be able to uncover said Numbers and ascertain if the vehicle was stolen.
 
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OC for ME

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"If one has access to the firearm"...hmm, interesting perspective. Does a level two or three holster infer that a cop has access to a firearm? What about a concealed firearm, does the cop have access to a properly concealed firearm? In a closed container of a POV? What about under the driver seat of the POV.

What about those firearm configurations where the serial number is covered by after market components, is that defacing, or will the anti-2A cop disassemble the firearm to reveal the serial number. What does securing a firearm for "officer safety" :)rolleyes:) have to do with running a serial number? Running a serial number is no different that arresting you to see if you are a felon in possession...BS!
 

gutshot II

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as well as handed to them by the citizen
1. Tape over your SN. Warrant needed to remove it.

2. NEVER hand your firearm to a LEO. Let them remove it from your holster. But, IMHO the safest place for your firearm for everyone concerned is IN YOUR HOLSTER.

This came up on a forum decades ago. The consensus was that multiple states either have words on the books or precedent that says any attempt to prevent a serial number from being read (tape, glue, etc) is considered "defacing" with some stiff penalties.

In Ky. defacing a firearm is illegal and covering the serial
number is considered defacing.


527.030 Defacing a firearm.
(1) A person is guilty of defacing a firearm when he intentionally defaces a firearm.
(2) Defacing a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor.

And Defacing is defined in KRS 527.010:

527.010 Definitions for chapter.
The following definitions apply in this chapter unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) "Booby trap device" shall have the same meaning as set forth in KRS 237.030.
(2) "Deface" means to remove, deface, cover,alter, or destroy the manufacturer's
serial number
or any other distinguishing number or identification mark.
 
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solus

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as well as handed to them by the citizen

In Ky. defacing a firearm is illegal and covering the serial number is considered defacing.

Snipp

527.010 Definitions for chapter.
The following definitions apply in this chapter unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) "Booby trap device" shall have the same meaning as set forth in KRS 237.030.
(2) "Deface" means to remove, deface, cover, alter, or destroy the manufacturer's
serial number
or any other distinguishing number or identification mark.

So KY’s firearm carrying citizens never holster their firearms whatsoever, since by KY statutory definition, as stated, would ‘cover’ the manufacturer’s s/n, thus in of itself would be/is considered defacement of the firearm’s serial number.

And here I was beginning to think KY was a forward, progressive state....
 

OC for ME

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"If one has access to the firearm"...


Since you misquoted me

Let say it again if one has legal access

If you don't understand the difference take the time to under stand there is a difference.
No misquote, "legal" is not the foundation of your premise in my view, "if" is the foundation of your premise. The legality of gaining access to the firearm is irrelevant on the side of the road. Only a judge will determine if the cop had gained access to the firearm legally...and then only if the citizen challenges the cop's actions in front of that judge.

Side note: This is what cops count on in my view. Citizen's too intimidated, too fearful, to challenge the cop in court. A citizen will not "flexing his rights" after a obvious rights violation, due to the cost in time and money...from a minor traffic infraction.

From a LEO point of view if one has legal access to the firearm then one would be able to run the serial number.

From a personnel point of view I never ran serial numbers unless I had a reason to believe they might be stolen. ...
Example: (see opening post)
Cop: Sir, do you know why I stopped you?
Citizen: No Officer.
Cop: Sir, your license plate light is out.
Citizen: I did not know that officer.
Cop: Sir, are you in possession of any weapons?
Citizen: Officer, I don’t consent to any searches, am I free to go?
Cop: Sir, are you in possession of any weapons?
Citizen: Officer, I don’t consent to any searches, am I free to go?

Does the cop now have legal authority to search the citizen and his vehicle for any weapons?
Be aware that minor traffic violations (e.g. speeding, broken tail-light, or expired registration) are not considered probable cause. https://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/when-can-police-search-your-car/
You did not articulate what would be a cop's legal justification for gaining access to the firearm. Would the "for officer safety" canard be a cop's legal justification to search the vehicle for a firearm? If a firearm is discovered would the firearm then be seized. Would a cop then use the "in plain sight" canard (seized firearm now in the cop's possession) to run the serial number.

What factors about the citizen, or the firearm, during the traffic stop, would lead a cop to believe a firearm is present and then possibly stolen.
 
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