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Powell Co. Gun Laws.

gutshot II

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Jul 1, 2017
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782
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Central Ky.
Does anybody here live near or know somebody that lives near Powell Co. I need to know if Powell Co. prohibits firearms in any of their buildings or on any of their property. If they do, I could use some pictures of any signs that are posted. Thanks in advance for any help.
 

lcbaitshop

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Feb 23, 2018
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KY
Bit late..

It's a bit late, but born and raised in Powell County. Reckon the only places I've never carried was the Billy Joe Martin Government Center (read: courthouse) or the schools. The lodge up at the bridge may or may not, it's been forever since I've been up there and then it was in an official capacity, but my memory is foggy. Other than that, not sure anybody in their right mind would want to exclude upstanding, law abiding citizens from exercising their 2nd amendment right, given how bad things have gotten. I have a house up there now that I can't keep druggies out of and I have family right across the road.
 

gutshot II

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Central Ky.
It's a bit late, but born and raised in Powell County. Reckon the only places I've never carried was the Billy Joe Martin Government Center (read: courthouse) ...snip

You mean the building with this sign on the front door that has been there for over 20 years

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqw75p2u0mhv8ij/20180213_133429.jpg?dl=0


that is backed up by this illegal county ordinance from 1998.
View attachment 13426

Well, you can go back home and carry there, now. I was looking for somebody local to go by and get a picture of any signs and email it to me, but there were no takers, here or on three other firearms forums. I had to drive to Richmond for some other business that I will be talking about in about a week, so I decided to make the drive to Stanton in Powell Co. myself. All in all over 200 miles for the entire round trip.

I talked to Powell County Judge James Anderson about the signs and the ordinance and explained that the ordinance has never been legal because it bans openly carried weapons and it imposses a penalty for violations. He said he was not going to attempt to pass a new ordinance and was just going to take the signs down. 20 years they been violating the law and nobody questioned it. 20 mins. with gutshot II and all is well. Why does nobody else care? Why won't others lift a finger to help themselves out of oppression? Why will they not rid themselves of these odious politicians? Why do people just bend over and take it? I just don't understand. This was easy(except for the 200 miles). A child could have done it. I really, really fear for our Republic. Nobody gives a damn.

The whole truth is that I was working on something in PPPerry Co. (you'll be hearing about that too, in a few days) and I sent an open records request to the wrong County Clerk (PPPowell Co. instead of PPPerry Co.)and got the ordinance back and knew right away that it was trouble. I didn't know if they were actually enforcing the ordinance so wanted somebody to go look for signs. So actually, I fixed this ACCIDENTALLY. Why can't somebody else try to fix one ON PURPOSE?
 
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solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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here nc
forgive the irreverence but, by your own post, the ordince is still on the books, valid, and viable, so joe smuck county worker sees the sign is missing, blames hooligan youngsters, spends precious county funding for a new one and some poor gun toting county citizen runs into the local county constable who knows the county ordnances like the back of his hand, tickets the citizen, and the good judge fines the citizen plus court cost (gotta make a profit for the courts dontcha know)!

20 years, eh...
 

gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
Thanks for what you do, gutshot II. Maybe local gun owners in Powell County just ignore the signage and carry on? That is lazy.

Thanks for your appreciation of my labors, but you should reread my post. There are no signs any more. The County Judge had them taken down. There are no plans to pass a new ordinance and no plans to rewrite and replace the signs. The ordinance was invalid from the day it was passed in 1998, due to its noncompliance with state law. KRS 65.870 declared all ordinances like that to be "null, void and unenforceable" as of Jan. 12, 2013. So there is no longer any ordinance and there are no signs, now and no plans for any new signs. All is peace and love in Powell County, Ky.
 

solus

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here nc
Clifford's law center 1 Nov 17 updated article:

quote: The Kentucky Attorney General has interpreted section 237.115(2) to mean that “a local government, without otherwise violating the statutory prohibition contained in [section 65.870], may prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in buildings or portions of buildings owned, leased, or controlled by a county.” 10 (#10: 96 Ky. Op. Att’y Gen. 39, 1996 Ky. AG LEXIS 79)

However, a county judge/executive (the chief elected official of counties in Kentucky) does not qualify as a “legislative body” and thus cannot regulate the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in the designated areas. That authority instead falls to the fiscal court of a county because the fiscal court is the county’s legislative body. 11 (#11 KRS § 237.115(2) & (3)) unquote.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/local-authority-to-regulate-firearms-in-kentucky/

seems Gutshot, there might be a slight conflict or confusion factor between your perceptions of KRS 65.870 and the KY AG on the ability of KY county fiscal court(s) to, in fact, prohibit/limit concealed weapons IAW 237.115(2)!
 
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gutshot II

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782
Location
Central Ky.
Tuesday evening, Powell County Fiscal Court held their monthly meeting. Wednesday, I got this email from the Powell County Attorney to update the progress and decisions of Powell County Fiscal Court concerning this issue.

It is my belief that to abolish an ordinance the same publication requirements must be met that are required to enact an ordinance. With that being said we did a first reading of an ordinance abolishing the old ordinance. The fiscal court discussed whether or not to enact a new ordinance in compliance with KRS and has decided to go with no new ordinance at all. At our next meeting we will have the second reading of the abolishing ordinance and then the issue will be resolved. Our County Judge advised us at the meeting that he would be calling a special meeting to address final budget issues and we agreed to add this issue on at that meeting for the second reading. That basically means we won't be waiting another month for our next meeting. It will be approximately 2 weeks.
 

willy1094

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Apr 12, 2013
Messages
201
Location
Nothern KY
Clifford's law center 1 Nov 17 updated article:

quote: The Kentucky Attorney General has interpreted section 237.115(2) to mean that “a local government, without otherwise violating the statutory prohibition contained in [section 65.870], may prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in buildings or portions of buildings owned, leased, or controlled by a county.” 10 (#10: 96 Ky. Op. Att’y Gen. 39, 1996 Ky. AG LEXIS 79)

However, a county judge/executive (the chief elected official of counties in Kentucky) does not qualify as a “legislative body” and thus cannot regulate the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in the designated areas. That authority instead falls to the fiscal court of a county because the fiscal court is the county’s legislative body. 11 (#11 KRS § 237.115(2) & (3)) unquote.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/local-authority-to-regulate-firearms-in-kentucky/

seems Gutshot, there might be a slight conflict or confusion factor between your perceptions of KRS 65.870 and the KY AG on the ability of KY county fiscal court(s) to, in fact, prohibit/limit concealed weapons IAW 237.115(2)!

gutshotII neither said nor made comment on concealed carry so I'm not sure where the confusion is. The AG's decision to allow regulation of concealed carry is well known (at least on this site) and gutshot II's fight has always been against signage that prohibits carrying deadly weapons/guns without specific reference to "Concealed" carry.

gutshot II, I got excited for a second thinking I would be able to help since I'll be traveling through there next weekend. I'm glad all is good.
ETA: WOW, just saw this was started in January. I don't know how I missed this thread. My apologies.
 
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gutshot II

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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
gutshotII neither said nor made comment on concealed carry so I'm not sure where the confusion is. The AG's decision to allow regulation of concealed carry is well known (at least on this site) and gutshot II's fight has always been against signage that prohibits carrying deadly weapons/guns without specific reference to "Concealed" carry.

gutshot II, I got excited for a second thinking I would be able to help since I'll be traveling through there next weekend. I'm glad all is good.
ETA: WOW, just saw this was started in January. I don't know how I missed this thread. My apologies.

The Powell Co. Fiscal Court had a first reading of an ordinance to repeal the old, existing ordinance to ban guns in the courthouse on Tuesday, April 9. That old ordinance did not comply with KRS 237.115. It was illegal the day it was written back in 2003. In order to complete the repeal of that old ordinance, a second reading will be necessary and that will happen in two weeks. That will be the end of the ordinance. Fiscal Court also declined to pass a new ordinace that would comply with KRS 237.115. There will be no regulation of firearms in that building in the near future, no matter whether the firearm is carried openly or concealed. The County Judge and County Attorney have recently recieved a complete tutorial on Ky. firearms law and they are aware of their limitations and authorities and want nothing to do with firearms regulation.

Sorry willy, I am not sure what you mean by saying that the AG has "decided to allow regulation of concealed carry". The General Assembly is the only government entity in Ky that can regulate concealed carry. They have delegated some limited authority to cities and counties in KRS 237.115. That is nothing new. The AG has done nothing to change anything. The statute was passed in 1996 along with its companion KRS 237.110 and the combination of those two are what made up Ky's original "concealed carry law". That delegated authority is very limited in that it can only apply to concealed weapons and it can only apply inside "buildings" and it must be undertaken "by ordinance" and must contain several exceptions, namely for buildings in highway rest areas, buildings used for public housing, buildings used for private dwellings etc. There has never been any question of whether a city or county could ban concealed weapons under 237.115. Over the years there have been many attempts by the cities and counties to stretch and twist that authority to include openly carried weapons and to extend outside of buildings and attempts to include vehicles, aircraft and watercraft. In many of those cases KC3 has stepped in to put an end to that conduct, just as we have done with Powell County in this case. There have been a few cases over the years where the AG has ruled on a city or county exceeding their authority but there has never been a case where the AG's office "decided" that they had any more authority than what is very unambiguously given to them in the statutes. The AG's office does not make "decisions". They issue "opinions". Those "opinions" are not law and have no legal standing. They are just "opinions". An AG's "opinion" might carry more weight in a courtroom where a judge would render a "decision", but an AG's "opinion" is just another piece of evidence to build a case on. The AG can't make a "decision". The AG's "opinions" have always restricted cities and counties misbehaviour, not expanded any limited authority they might have had. If you could give me a little context on that statement, I might be able to explain it further.
 

willy1094

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201
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Nothern KY

The Powell Co. Fiscal Court had a first reading of an ordinance to repeal the old, existing ordinance to ban guns in the courthouse on Tuesday, April 9. That old ordinance did not comply with KRS 237.115. It was illegal the day it was written back in 2003. In order to complete the repeal of that old ordinance, a second reading will be necessary and that will happen in two weeks. That will be the end of the ordinance. Fiscal Court also declined to pass a new ordinace that would comply with KRS 237.115. There will be no regulation of firearms in that building in the near future, no matter whether the firearm is carried openly or concealed. The County Judge and County Attorney have recently recieved a complete tutorial on Ky. firearms law and they are aware of their limitations and authorities and want nothing to do with firearms regulation.

Sorry willy, I am not sure what you mean by saying that the AG has "decided to allow regulation of concealed carry". The General Assembly is the only government entity in Ky that can regulate concealed carry. They have delegated some limited authority to cities and counties in KRS 237.115. That is nothing new. The AG has done nothing to change anything. The statute was passed in 1996 along with its companion KRS 237.110 and the combination of those two are what made up Ky's original "concealed carry law". That delegated authority is very limited in that it can only apply to concealed weapons and it can only apply inside "buildings" and it must be undertaken "by ordinance" and must contain several exceptions, namely for buildings in highway rest areas, buildings used for public housing, buildings used for private dwellings etc. There has never been any question of whether a city or county could ban concealed weapons under 237.115. Over the years there have been many attempts by the cities and counties to stretch and twist that authority to include openly carried weapons and to extend outside of buildings and attempts to include vehicles, aircraft and watercraft. In many of those cases KC3 has stepped in to put an end to that conduct, just as we have done with Powell County in this case. There have been a few cases over the years where the AG has ruled on a city or county exceeding their authority but there has never been a case where the AG's office "decided" that they had any more authority than what is very unambiguously given to them in the statutes. The AG's office does not make "decisions". They issue "opinions". Those "opinions" are not law and have no legal standing. They are just "opinions". An AG's "opinion" might carry more weight in a courtroom where a judge would render a "decision", but an AG's "opinion" is just another piece of evidence to build a case on. The AG can't make a "decision". The AG's "opinions" have always restricted cities and counties misbehaviour, not expanded any limited authority they might have had. If you could give me a little context on that statement, I might be able to explain it further.

My reply was in reply to the post made by solus. I'm not sure if that is blocked from you so I'll just paste it here:

solus: "Clifford's law center 1 Nov 17 updated article:

quote: The Kentucky Attorney General has interpreted section 237.115(2) to mean that “a local government, without otherwise violating the statutory prohibition contained in [section 65.870], may prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in buildings or portions of buildings owned, leased, or controlled by a county.” 10 (#10: 96 Ky. Op. Att’y Gen. 39, 1996 Ky. AG LEXIS 79)

However, a county judge/executive (the chief elected official of counties in Kentucky) does not qualify as a “legislative body” and thus cannot regulate the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in the designated areas. That authority instead falls to the fiscal court of a county because the fiscal court is the county’s legislative body. 11 (#11 KRS § 237.115(2) & (3)) unquote.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/local-...s-in-kentucky/

seems Gutshot, there might be a slight conflict or confusion factor between your perceptions of KRS 65.870 and the KY AG on the ability of KY county fiscal court(s) to, in fact, prohibit/limit concealed weapons IAW 237.115(2)!"

I meant to say AG opinion supported existing LAW but instead made it sound like it created law and that is my bad. I hope this give context to my post. I've said it before and I'll say it again...THANK YOU for what you do. I don't get on the forum as much as I used to but I try to keep an eye out for areas I can help in.
 
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color of law

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AG opinions do carry weight when the opinion directs what law enforcement can and cannot do. Example: game wardens believe they have full police powers. Ask one, they will tell you they do. But, KRS Chapter § 150.021 does not give them full police power and the AG has written opinions making that clear.
 

gutshot II

Regular Member
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Messages
782
Location
Central Ky.
My reply was in reply to the post made by solus. I'm not sure if that is blocked from you so I'll just paste it here:

solus: "Clifford's law center 1 Nov 17 updated article:

quote: The Kentucky Attorney General has interpreted section 237.115(2) to mean that “a local government, without otherwise violating the statutory prohibition contained in [section 65.870], may prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in buildings or portions of buildings owned, leased, or controlled by a county.” 10 (#10: 96 Ky. Op. Att’y Gen. 39, 1996 Ky. AG LEXIS 79)

However, a county judge/executive (the chief elected official of counties in Kentucky) does not qualify as a “legislative body” and thus cannot regulate the carrying of concealed deadly weapons in the designated areas. That authority instead falls to the fiscal court of a county because the fiscal court is the county’s legislative body. 11 (#11 KRS § 237.115(2) & (3)) unquote.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/local-...s-in-kentucky/

seems Gutshot, there might be a slight conflict or confusion factor between your perceptions of KRS 65.870 and the KY AG on the ability of KY county fiscal court(s) to, in fact, prohibit/limit concealed weapons IAW 237.115(2)!"

I meant to say AG opinion supported existing LAW but instead made it sound like it created law and that is my bad. I hope this give context to my post. I've said it before and I'll say it again...THANK YOU for what you do. I don't get on the forum as much as I used to but I try to keep an eye out for areas I can help in.

The bold part from above is correct. I don't think it was you that made it sound that way. It was the other person and Cliffords Law Center that did that. I'll not speculate on the motives of either. Why would we read or care what Clifford's law center thinks about this. Why don't we look directly at the AG's Opinion.
In that opinion The AG was asked 5 questions:


Rep. Mark A. Treesh propounds the following questions:

1. May a county judge/executive or other local official ban the possession or carrying in a public park of firearms, whether concealed or not?
2. May the fiscal court or other legislative body ban in a public park the possession or carrying of firearms which are not concealed, or those which are concealed and are not carried within a building?
3. May the carrying of concealed weapons in park buildings by holders of state licenses for carrying concealed weapons be prohibited by the county judge/executive or must this be done by the local legislative body pursuant to the provisions of 1996 HB 40.
4. Can the county judge/executive be considered the custodian of the parks as per the suggestion of the Daviess County Attorney?
5. If the county judge/executive can serve as custodian of county property, does this give him the authority to regulate firearms in county parks or on other county property?

The opinion is about these things and these things only. It is not about the general wording of KRS 237.115 and whether or not a city or county has the authority to ban concealed weapons in buildings that they own or occupy. That has never been in dispute by me or anyone else who possesses the most rudimentary reading skills. It says it in black letters on white paper in the statute. The AG even says so in the Opinion when he says: "The statutes discussed herein clearly prescribe the authority of a fiscal court in this field."

In the opinion the AG answers the 5 questions and then expands his answer to explaining why he holds that opinion by explaining the law in full. The part where he mentions the delegation of authority by the General Assembly to cities and counties is just a part of that explanation, not a change in the law or a new "decision" or new interpretation.

AGO 96-39 was requested almost immediately after concealed carry was passed by the General Assembly in 1996. Right after that bill became law, the County Judge/Exec. of Daviess Co. issued a Executive Order banning guns in all Daviess County parks. The opinion is not about banning guns by a county. It is about the manner that the County Judge chose to do the banning and the place he chose. The statutes, very plainly says that concealed weapons can be banned IN BUILDINGS and by the LEGISLATIVE BODY of a city or county BY ORDINANCE, STATUTE OR ADMINISTRATIVE REGULATION.
The statute does not allow a County Judge/Exec. or any other singular person to do it and it does not allow anyone or any group to do it in open spaces.

The Opinion answers all 5 of the questions with a NO. The "conclusion" section of the Opinion says:

To summarize, and to apply this analysis to the specific facts presented, it is our opinion that neither the Daviess County Fiscal Court nor its County Judge/Executive, or any other local official, can ban the possession or carrying in a public park the open or concealed carrying of firearms, except the Daviess County Fiscal Court, which if it properly passes an ordinance, may prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed firearms in park buildings or portions thereof owned, leased or controlled by it. The statutes discussed herein clearly prescribe the authority of a fiscal court in this field. Based upon this, it is our opinion that Executive Order 287-96 promulgated by Daviess County Judge/ Executive W. M. Morris, Jr., undated, was unauthorized and has no legal effect.

So, this Opinion changed nothing about the new law. It just gave a smackdown to Judge Morris and his Executive Order. The thing that really puzzles me about this opinion is that it never mention KRS 65.870 and that is the statute that is really in question here. Since this doesn't fall into the exception of KRS 237.115, it is a violation of KRS 65.870. I suppose that the AG didn't want to muddy the water any further and since he wasn't asked about 65.870 he remained silent on that issue. Since 237.115 was new he probably thought that it was more important to clarify that issue mor than a statute that had been around for 12 years.

You can see AGO 96-39 here:

https://ag.ky.gov/government/opinions/Opinions%20New/OAG9639.htm
 
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