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Thread: What if I make my SBR outside of city limits?

  1. #1
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    What if I make my SBR outside of city limits?

    ATF requires the city and state of making as part of the engraving so . . . . I will be making mine outside of any city, in an unincorporated areA (county). Do I use the county?

    "BUSTED WHISTLE COUNTY, MT"?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Do you receive mail? Any bills, letters, postcards, Amazon deliveries?
    Do those letters have a city and ZIP code on them?

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    Now days with the recent ATF rulings I just make pistol with an arm brace and not worry about any of the SBR foolishness.

    Not worth a couple inches of length. IMHO
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 11-14-2017 at 06:24 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Do you receive mail? Any bills, letters, postcards, Amazon deliveries?
    Do those letters have a city and ZIP code on them?


    No. They have a ZIP code and associated unincorporated area. No city.

    Since I won't be making the SBR in a city, I'm thinking the next higher level of municipal corporation, which around here is the county.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    No. They have a ZIP code and associated unincorporated area. No city.

    Since I won't be making the SBR in a city, I'm thinking the next higher level of municipal corporation, which around here is the county.[/COLOR]
    Here's what Google thinks are the ZIP Codes for Montana. Which is your ZIP Code that only has an associated unincorporated area?

    NB "... in a city", is not necessarily the same thing as "within the city limits of _____".
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 11-14-2017 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Edited to include link to Montana ZIP Codes

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    This has nothing to do with ZIP codes. Either I'm in a city or I'm not. I'm not. But I'm required to mark the SBR with a city, by law . . . .

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You are confusing "in a city" with "within the city limits of". I'll ask again ... What ZIP Code are you in and what is the city associated with that ZIP Code?

    I linked to the ZIP Code list as that answers the question of what 'city' the ATF requires be marked on the firearm. My apologies for pointing out the easiest and simplest way to end your confusion.

    The "... next higher level of municipal corporation, which around here is the county..." isn't going to cut it as that's Not what the ATF specifies be marked.


    I have a feeling you're making this needlessly complicated.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 11-14-2017 at 11:27 PM.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    might i inquire if you are completing ATF’s Form 1, if IAW section 10, which Chief LE organizational enity per 478.63, are you going to notify and list? this might provide insight into resolving your quandary?

    additionally, 478.62 states name and address, therefore your address has a city attached not some vague reference to timbuc too unincorporated nowhere!
    Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively. Delai Lama XIV

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    "in a city" with "within the city limits of"


    I'm not in a city if I'm not within the legal boundaries of a municipal corporation commonly known as a city. It's unincorporated. There is no city. It's a county jurisdiction. There is a county sheriff. The is no other law enforcement that responds, except by mutual aid. I don't get a city policeman because I'm not in a city. See?

    My mail comes to a geographical place name associated with my zip code, and it's not a city. If I have that geographical place name engraved on the SBR and also list it on the Form 1 in box 4h, it won't be in compliance with the law, which requires a city.

    might i inquire if you are completing ATF’s Form 1, if IAW section 10, which Chief LE organizational enity per 478.63, are you going to notify and list? this might provide insight into resolving your quandary?


    The county sheriff, as I'm not in a city so wouldn't notify a Chief of Police.



  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    What's with all the Super Secret Squirrel nonsense about "geographical name associated with my Zip Code"?

    Here is every damn ZIP Code listed for the United States.
    1. Find a piece of mail addressed to you.
    2. Find the state you live listed on the web-page
    3. Click on the state that matches where you live
    4. Look at your mail
    5. Match your ZIP Code on your mail with the ZIP Code on the web-page
    6. Look to the right of the ZIP Code on the web-page and Find the city, or as some call it the "geographical name associated with the ZIP Code".

    Now you have your answer.

    If you are still confused go to your nearest Post Office and tell them where you live and have them look up the city for you. If they cannot come up with a city for you, I'll pay for the damn tax stamp.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 11-15-2017 at 01:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Dean, since the member's responses still seem opaque to you, might I suggest you check your other stomping grounds... https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=588644 which has a july 17 thread which provides a very comprehensive cite which might answer your query to your satisfaction: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/W...ons/17-465636/

    best of luck trying to facilitate your ATF Form 1 in King County with a newly elected sheriff on board!
    Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively. Delai Lama XIV

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    As in Enumclaw, Washington 98022? Nahhhhh, that doesn't make any sense, that'd put him in the middle of downtown Enumclaw.

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    This has nothing to do with the USPS, Zip codes, or USPS addressing standards They don't get to decide if I live in a city.

    I don't live in King County, so that's not a factor. Even if I did, it still wouldn't be a factor. CLEO approval is no longer required.

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    This has nothing to do with the USPS, Zip codes, or USPS addressing standards They don't get to decide if I live in a city.

    I don't live in King County, so that's not a factor. Even if I did, it still wouldn't be a factor. CLEO approval is no longer required.
    truly, hummm, so Deanf, do you happen to have a reference for this extraordinary bit of news that LE is not required to be notified, which i am sure will excite the multitudes of citizens engaged in making their own firearms?

    so when will the ATF’s form(s) be released which reflect this exemplary position?
    Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively. Delai Lama XIV

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    This has nothing to do with the USPS, Zip codes, or USPS addressing standards They don't get to decide if I live in a city.

    I don't live in King County, so that's not a factor. Even if I did, it still wouldn't be a factor. CLEO approval is no longer required.
    I don't know and don't really care where your Super Secret Squirrel Fortress of Solitude is.
    You said there's a "geographical name associated with my Zip Code". Tell us what the ZIP Code is and we'll happily tell you what "City" should be listed on your paperwork.

    Or, keep it a secret. I'm beyond caring; I've tried to help you and you're being needlessly obtuse.

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    truly, hummm, so Deanf, do you happen to have a reference for this extraordinary bit of news that LE is not required to be notified, which i am sure will excite the multitudes of citizens engaged in making their own firearms?

    so when will the ATF’s form(s) be released which reflect this exemplary position?
    Notice I said CLEO approval is not required. Only notification. The latest Form 1 available on the BATF web site indicates this.

    Tell us what the ZIP Code is and we'll happily tell you what "City" should be listed on your paperwork.
    Ok. Sure. 98391. Now tell me what "city" I live in, where I will make the SBR, and your answer better not be the USPS station my mail comes out of, because I don't live in the city of that name (or any city).

    The engraving of an SBR has nothing to do with a mailing address.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Ok. Sure. 98391. Now tell me what "city" I live in, where I will make the SBR, and your answer better not be the USPS station my mail comes out of, because I don't live in the city of that name (or any city).
    The engraving of an SBR has nothing to do with a mailing address.

    First things first...
    1. You don't get to tell me what I 'better not do'.
    2. No one has said that SBR engraving has anything to do with a mailing address.
    3. No one has said that you have to live 'within the city limits of _____' to have that listed as the city where the firearm was constructed.

    Now, on to the fun part...

    Jaysus... the way you carried on it sounded like you lived smack dab in the middle of nowhere and more than a few miles from "y'all cain't get there from here." Now I'm just amused that you live somewhere that has a population density More Crowded than where I live (>1,100 ppl/sq mi v. <900 ppl/sq mi.)
    For that matter, I "don't live in a city" neither. No siree, them there 'city people' live on the other side of the road, that's where the 'big city' starts, I live out in the country on the lake side of the road. Must be a good twenny, maybe thutty feet before I'm "within the city limits".

    98391's primary city is Bonney Lake, Washington, but also includes Lake Tapps and Sumner. Any letter addressed to your street address/route number and any one of the cities listed will reach your address. It also provides all the information the ATF needs to complete the application.

    What you "better not do" is keep on confusing some perceived need to live within the city limits of a city in order to have that city listed as your residence.


    I don't mind helping people, but my patience wears thin when someone is being deliberately obtuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    First things first...
    1. You don't get to tell me what I 'better not do'.
    2. No one has said that SBR engraving has anything to do with a mailing address.
    3. No one has said that you have to live 'within the city limits of _____' to have that listed as the city where the firearm was constructed.

    Now, on to the fun part...

    Jaysus... the way you carried on it sounded like you lived smack dab in the middle of nowhere and more than a few miles from "y'all cain't get there from here." Now I'm just amused that you live somewhere that has a population density More Crowded than where I live (>1,100 ppl/sq mi v. <900 ppl/sq mi.)
    For that matter, I "don't live in a city" neither. No siree, them there 'city people' live on the other side of the road, that's where the 'big city' starts, I live out in the country on the lake side of the road. Must be a good twenny, maybe thutty feet before I'm "within the city limits".

    98391's primary city is Bonney Lake, Washington, but also includes Lake Tapps and Sumner. Any letter addressed to your street address/route number and any one of the cities listed will reach your address. It also provides all the information the ATF needs to complete the application.

    What you "better not do" is keep on confusing some perceived need to live within the city limits of a city in order to have that city listed as your residence.


    I don't mind helping people, but my patience wears thin when someone is being deliberately obtuse.

    I understand your frustration with this. I understand the OP's problem, or lack thereof, because I live in exactly the same situation. What I don't understand is why you keep responding to a person like this with a "problem" like this. Just drop this and be rid of this nusiance. You can't win with a person like this. Your attempts to help him will only lead to more frustration and more abuse. What does he expect you to do for him? What will satisfy him? Does he expect you to "invent" an address that he thinks will be acceptible?

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    My ZIP Code covers and area spanning one incorporated borough and parts of four townships in three counties. I can understand the OP's frustrations. What the US Postal Service uses for a location and what the ATF wants may well be two completely unrelated things. In this neck of the woods, we have rural post offices with names for unincorporated places within a township. In one instance a local post office is named for a community that no longer exists, but couldn't be named for the one that still exists because at the time that name was being used by another community within the state (but that community no longer exists now). Post Office names, not unlike railroad station names, are for the convenience of the Post Office, and have nothing to do with where they actually are.

    Me? I'd get something in writing from the ATF to make the engraving legitimate.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    My ZIP Code covers and area spanning one incorporated borough and parts of four townships in three counties. I can understand the OP's frustrations. What the US Postal Service uses for a location and what the ATF wants may well be two completely unrelated things. In this neck of the woods, we have rural post offices with names for unincorporated places within a township. In one instance a local post office is named for a community that no longer exists, but couldn't be named for the one that still exists because at the time that name was being used by another community within the state (but that community no longer exists now). Post Office names, not unlike railroad station names, are for the convenience of the Post Office, and have nothing to do with where they actually are.

    Me? I'd get something in writing from the ATF to make the engraving legitimate.
    I don't believe the ATF specifies what "city" means in regards to someone manufacturing an NFA item. See ATF handbook so the common dictionary definition would be acceptable.
    Further, you could manufacture an NFA item and get your stamp delivered on Monday and then move to an entirely different city in the same state on Tuesday with no legal obligation to notify the ATF. It would seem somewhat obvious that "city" is there to give a starting point, so that any authority need not consult Gainesville, FL law enforcement when it's Gainesville, GA that they need.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-04-2018 at 11:00 PM.

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