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Thread: Carrying while defending a Confederate monument a no-no.

  1. #26
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The idea that you can try to connect two completely different situations -- comparing the Father of our Country and the Creator of our Constitution -- who lived according to the customs and mores of their society at the time, with a baseball player who violated the rules of his profession, simply demonstrates how vacuous your thinking is. Combine that with your consistent snide, paternalistic remarks toward those with whom you disagree has earned you the approbation you so richly deserve.
    so james, whoring with the help and fathering bastard offspring was according to the customs and mores of the Anglican society at the time of our founding fathers, look at what is learned out here...

    ipse
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The idea that you can try to connect two completely different situations -- comparing the Father of our Country and the Creator of our Constitution -- who lived according to the customs and mores of their society at the time, with a baseball player who violated the rules of his profession, simply demonstrates how vacuous your thinking is. Combine that with your consistent snide, paternalistic remarks toward those with whom you disagree has earned you the approbation you so richly deserve.
    You are making my argument for me James, yes, Rose violated some rules, hence no statue, no free tickets to ball games, no hall of fame.. Simply for violating some rule..( I am not a fan of Rose).. My point was and is that gambling is excepted in 21st century America, Casinos everywhere, however Rose violated the rules of his association.. Hence he is barred..

    Washington and Jefferson, both great fathers, however, they made their wealth from the labor of human slaves.
    Hence, I am not a fan of either of them, Ill take Paine, Hamilton and Adams over them as my heroes and the heroes of my posterity, just like I would take Mays, Williams and Aaron over Rose..

    Clearly I am in the minority concerning Washington and Jefferson, but please let me pick my heroes, you and everyone else can pick their own heroes. Both violated the Golden Rule, both violated the Natural laws of nature, I only pray that our Creator, is as kind and beholding unto them as you are James.. Hopefully your heroes are resting peacefully in their graves, Im sure my 18th Century Heroes surely are at peace.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    The analogy, while interesting, is flawed. Pete Rose broke well established rules.

    In contrast, owning slaves was socially, legally, and morally acceptable in most societies throughout most of history. To condemn otherwise great men, to diminish in any way their contributions or the appropriateness of remembering them because they were victims of their culture is to take a very callow view of history.

    Indeed, it reminds me of those who would mock various Biblical accounts based on current standards. Some condemn the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve for engaging in incest as there was nobody to marry except their siblings. Or Abraham for having two concubines in addition to a wife.

    As obviously evil as slavery is to us, today, it is grossly unjust to judge prior generations by our understanding. Might just as well claim that Washington's doctors "murdered" him by bleeding him to death or that the medical professionals who treated Touring "tortured" him. With any luck, we will one day look back on chemotherapy with as much horror as current do on blood letting and electroshock. But today's oncologists are not engaging in torture or murder no matter how bad the side effects or how often the treatment is ineffective. They are providing the best care of which they are capable given current knowledge. So too with mental health experts in 1950s/60s England and doctors in 19th century America.

    And in like manner, Jefferson, Washington, and others of prior generations who owned slaves and treated them as justly as slaves were ever treated in such societies, cannot be condemned. Neither does honoring the good these men did, countenance slavery.

    It is like the idiots who made the FDR memorial and refused to include any images of his almost ubiquitous cigarette holder for fear of encouraging smoking. For FDR, Churchill, George Burns, and Groucho Marx, their cigarette/cigar was as much as essential prop as anything to do with nicotine addiction.

    It is a shame to hear such a narrow minded view of history as you put forth regarding some of our great founders and framers.

    Charles
    It appears the honorable folks of New Orleans have the same narrow minded view hence the statue of General Lee, is coming down, four down and zero left.. Good for the great diverse citizens of New Orleans.

    Now put up a statue honoring William L. Garrison, the perfect " Coup de Grace"..

    My .02
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  4. #29
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    ... they were in fact violators of human rights and God's natural laws..
    Violators of God's natural laws?

    I think the Word of God may have a different view on slavery than you're willing to admit, Joe.

    Genesis chapter 17, verse 12 reminds the pious to circumcise their slaves.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1: reminds you to free your Hebrew slaves; but only after six years.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20: God's pretty comfortable with beating your slave as long as you don't kill him.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32: God sets the market price of a slave gored to death by a bull at 30 shekels (between $150 and $15,000 in today's currency according to some sites). Oh, and the bull's gotta be stoned (groovie baby, groovie).
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44: God says you can purchase slaves and they can be bought, sold and handed down.


    Well,,, that was the original God, not the re-imagined one that appeared after everyone told him he was a :censored: and decided they only wanted to obey some of the Bible.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Violators of God's natural laws?

    I think the Word of God may have a different view on slavery than you're willing to admit, Joe.

    Genesis chapter 17, verse 12 reminds the pious to circumcise their slaves.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1: reminds you to free your Hebrew slaves; but only after six years.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20: God's pretty comfortable with beating your slave as long as you don't kill him.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32: God sets the market price of a slave gored to death by a bull at 30 shekels (between $150 and $15,000 in today's currency according to some sites). Oh, and the bull's gotta be stoned (groovie baby, groovie).
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44: God says you can purchase slaves and they can be bought, sold and handed down.


    Well,,, that was the original God, not the re-imagined one that appeared after everyone told him he was a :censored: and decided they only wanted to obey some of the Bible.
    Please don't try to compare voluntary slavery of 5th and 6th century BC, with the buying and selling of slaves in 18th century America..

    The buying and selling of slaves in 5th and 6th century BC, was punishable by death..

    Please read all of the bible, not just what you feel justifies your personal believes..
    Clearly you are not a fan of the " Golden Rule"..

    My .02
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  6. #31
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "... Country Club Liberal Joe is a slave of his ignorance."
    Poor Joe, in his efforts to stir up shite, he's no longer even trying to sound truthful but is just making stuff up on the fly.

  7. #32
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    Let's get back to 18th century America.. Ill pick my heroes and you can also pick..

    Ill take,, Paine, Hamilton, and John Adams... please be my guess and pick any other three, or one, more honorable or moral.. Than my picks..

    Than we can debate.. Im waiting..

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  8. #33
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    Looks like Alabama folks are more partial to their monuments than the folks in NO..

    I guess ignorance is still truly bliss..

    My .02
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    And Hell is freezing ...
    I gave you my three 18th century heroes , Paine, Hamilton and John Adams

    You pick three and we can try a civil discourse on their morals and honor or lack thereof.

    Ill be waiting word-salad, you can also ask for assistance from that quasi intellectual from Georgia.

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  10. #35
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    I'm your Huckleberry!

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Poor Joe, in his efforts to stir up shite, he's no longer even trying to sound truthful but is just making stuff up on the fly.
    I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts.. John Locke

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    As much as Country Club Liberal Joe goes on about reading historical philosophy, one might think that he had become familiar with hermeneutics and its value in our understanding of our predecessors, the giants of the Earth upon whose shoulders we stand.

    A milestone in my philosophical journey is Alan Sokal's essay, Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity (Social Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996). http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/index.html

    The literary genre that it inspired may be the largest selection in my space-constrained print-book collection. Norman Levitt's book convinced me that not all avowed leftist academics are idiots.

    On this date in 1856, slavery argument leads to blows in Senate..

    As the abolitionist movement gained momentum and tensions between the North and South escalated, pro-slavery Democratic congressman, Representative Preston Brooks of South Carolina, attacked abolitionist senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts. Sumner had infuriated Brooks by speaking out against the 1854 Kansas-Nebraska Act-- a compromise measures that had paved the way for possible reemergence of slavery in the Kansas Territory-- all insulting Brook's cousin in the process. Brooks confronted the Northerner in the Senate chamber, striking him repeatedly with his cane.. When the cane broke, Brooks and a supporter left.. Per the History Channel..

    The pro slavery folks of the mid 19th century, were and are worst than the anti gun folks of 21st century America..

    Surely a part of our History, that is appalling to the decency of all humans.. A part of our History, that all decent American's should be ashamed thereof.. A part of our History that should be put to rest.. The problem is simply that many folks that have the same mentality of the ignorant representative from South Carolina, Mr. Brooks, are alive and living amongst us today.. We don't need monuments or statues or flags as a reminder of said ignorance, their actions are the interpreters of their thoughts.

    My .02
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  13. #38
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts.. John Locke

    CCJ
    John Locke was not all that a a bag of chips.

    G.A. Custer - his actions were heroic in one setting and disastrous in another. but one example, requiring more would use up too much band width. I have little use for the social contract theory. Individual liberty is my preference and let history judge my actions.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    John Locke was not all that a a bag of chips.

    G.A. Custer - his actions were heroic in one setting and disastrous in another. but one example, requiring more would use up too much band width. I have little use for the social contract theory. Individual liberty is my preference and let history judge my actions.
    Thank you for your honest reply.. What Founding Fathers in your opinion were supporters of ' Individual liberty" in 18th century America?.

    Regards
    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  15. #40
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    The topic at hand is in regards to removing historical markers and the open (concealed) carry of firearms.

    The markers are on public property, and are "owned" by the government...

    The law that forbids the carry of firearms near a demonstration are the result of the faux concern for a social contract, that the state has a duty to protect society from mental harm.

    The defenders of the markers should have been more proactive and gotten out the vote to have elected representatives, that represented the defender's values and ideals, elected to city council. Liberals control that city and liberals wanted the markers removed. Repealing the law that forbids the carry of a firearm near a demonstration should be made a priority.

    If the defenders get their folks in the city council the "city" could replace the markers to their respective locations.

    https://www.municode.com/library/LA/...54-342ILPOWEDE
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #41
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Pete Rose is probably the greatest hitter of all time. No one will likely ever beat most of his records. The fact that he's not in the HoF and banned from MLB is a travesty to the game. He didn't cheat. He bet on himself and his team. He didn't shave points, he probably played even harder because of it. Pete Rose is a legend and an icon in my eyes.

    /off topic rant
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Pete Rose is probably the greatest hitter of all time. No one will likely ever beat most of his records. The fact that he's not in the HoF and banned from MLB is a travesty to the game. He didn't cheat. He bet on himself and his team. He didn't shave points, he probably played even harder because of it. Pete Rose is a legend and an icon in my eyes.

    /off topic rant
    +1,, no rant whatsoever.. You support my argument, thank you.. If the greatest hitter of all time can not make the hall of fame based on some alleged allegations of wrong doing, ( victim less crime).. How can we, as a moral society, support the statues, monuments, flags, of not only one individual, but numerous folks, that had no problem, violating the rights and dignity and liberty of their fellow man..

    If the National Baseball Association, can find fault with the greatest hitter of all time, and vanish him, from all HONORS, how can we as a society, pay homage to folks that supported the violations and the vile treatment of human beings.

    What is the lesser or both evils, making a wager on a sport venue, or supporting slavery?.. I rest my case.

    My .02
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    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  18. #43
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    no rant whatsoever.. You support my argument
    My post was off-topic in regards to Pete Rose.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    My post was off-topic in regards to Pete Rose.
    I suspect you were looking thru opaque eyes, like many folks look thru those same eyes, regarding some of the slave owning Founders, or the supporters of slavery.. Our heroes are not perfect, whether in a game of sport, or the support of slavery, or the ownership thereof.. It falls on us, to decided what heroes are worthy, not just on a batting average, but how they treated their fellow human beings.

    Was Pete Rose a great hitter? Yes Indeed.. Was he a man of low character and morals? Again yes Indeed..

    Was Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Doctor Franklin, great ambassadors for liberty, rights and a great new Constitution for the future of America? Yes, Indeed they were.. And thank God, for them..

    Was Jefferson. Washington, Franklin, great human being's and respectful of the rights of other folks in 18th century America, NO they were not.
    Did they possess/own slaves and make a great living off the backs of their slaves,,,YES they did.. They were petty tyrants, plain and simple..

    We cannot simply acknowledge the greatness of our heroes, without recognizing their faults.. We cannot look at history thru opaque eyes..

    Read the history of our founders and signers, only Hamilton, Payne and John Adams, did not own slaves.. Only they should be in the hall of fame of 18th century America..

    Please be advised, any spelling or grammar mistakes are the product of my old age.

    My .02
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    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  20. #45
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    We seem to be experiencing extreme thread drift here.

    Pete Rose and Ben Franklin have nothing to do with the OP.

    Back on track or earn the lock.
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  21. #46
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    If you are ever in New Orleans you need to be aware of this:
    https://www.municode.com/…/new_or…/c...of_ordinances…
    Sec. 54-342. - Illegal possession of weapons at demonstrations.
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his possession or to have in any vehicle any weapon while participating in or attending a demonstration being held at a public place.
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his possession or to have in any vehicle at a point within 1,000 feet of a demonstration at a public place any weapon after having first been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration was taking place at a public place and after having been ordered by such officer to remove himself from the proscribed area until such time as he no longer is in possession of any weapon. This section shall not apply to any person in possession of any weapon in his private dwelling or place of business.
    (c) The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
    (1) Demonstration shall mean two or more persons assembled together for the purpose of picketing, speechmaking, marching, holding vigils, or other such form of conduct, which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers.
    (2) Law enforcement officer shall mean any duly appointed and acting federal, state, or local peace officer and any military or militia personnel called out or directed by constituted authority to keep the law and order provided that the law enforcement officer is on duty and present to actively police and control the demonstration and who is assigned this duty by his department or agency.
    (3) Weapons shall mean any pistol, rifle, shotgun or other firearms of any kind whether loaded or unloaded, air rifle, air pistol, knife, hatchet, ax, slingshot, blackjack, metal knuckles, mace, iron buckle, baseball bat, ax handle, chains, crowbar, hammer or other club or bludgeon or any other instrumentality, customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon.
    (Code 1956, § 42-56.1)
    It has existed since before preemption and IS enforceable!
    how is this even constitutional?
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  22. #47
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    how is this even constitutional?
    A very good question, one which I can't answer.
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