• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Dayton RTA (transit system) Open Carry Bus Ride(s)

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
RTA is at it again!

I've written RTA's CEO again, copying in various authorities, the media, and others because of a new news report: http://fox45now.com/news/local/dayton-rta-making-changes-to-gun-policies-after-fox-45-investigation

Letter follows:

Mr. Donaghy,

I’m confused by the specifics of RTA’s proposed revisions to its gun policies, and I would appreciate your help. Let me explain…

On Saturday Gerry Gustin, RTA’s Manager of Security, told me and others (after we rode three RTA buses while openly carrying) that, after consulting with what I believe he called “the legal team”, RTA had been informed that open carry (of a handgun) on RTA buses by an individual possessing a concealed handgun license was legal. That being the case, he said that the RTA Board was going to formally recognize that fact when they voted to approve new gun policies at their next board meeting (June 6).

Mr. Gustin’s assurance meant to me that item #16 of the proposed “Rules of the Road” (attached), which states “No open carry of firearms on RTA buses”, would be removed.

Some of the language in your attached May 16[SUP]th[/SUP] document states the law correctly when it says in part: “lawfully carried and possessed firearms” don’t violate RTA policy – a policy which of course must comply with Ohio law.

But, just a short while ago I become aware of another report (5/23/17) by Kelly May of channel 45: http://fox45now.com/news/local/dayton-rta-making-changes-to-gun-policies-after-fox-45-investigation, which directly contradicts Mr. Gustin’s assurance!

In Ms. May’s report, RTA’s Communications Manager Jessica Olson says that a person would not be allowed to carry a weapon openly onto a bus under the proposed policy revisions. This is simply not in compliance with the law with regard to the carry of a loaded handgun by a person possessing a concealed handgun license or its recognized equivalent.

I’m sure you can understand my confusion: on Saturday I’m told one thing, but on Tuesday a report comes out contradicting what I was told three days before!

Please let me know what policy is going to be presented to the RTA board for acceptance on June 6. (You can consider this an informal request, or a records request - your choice)

Finally, there is additional subject-relevant information in the post-script. Feel free to have a leading member of your “legal team” call me for clarifications, code cites, questions, or disagreements regarding the post-script or any of the above.


Cordially,

me


P.S. - Because Ohio’s gun laws can be confusing, for example, and just for review:

- Open carry of firearms is legal on outdoor public property open to the public
- Concealed carry of handguns is legal on outdoor public property open to the public – by those who possess a concealed handgun license or its equivalent
- Concealed OR open carry of handguns is legal on RTA buses by passengers – as long as they possess a concealed handgun license or its equivalent
- Regardless of whether or not RTA dislikes firearm carry on its property, or open handgun carry on its buses, RTA is a political subdivision of the State of Ohio, and as such, must comply with ORC 9.68, which among other things disallows RTA from setting its own rules regarding firearm possession or carry

Additional information:

- ORC 9.68 is clear. It says in part “Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.” ORC 9.68 and subsequent court decisions have made clear that political subdivisions such as RTA cannot (unless otherwise authorized) establish their own rules, regulations, etc. regarding firearms or in opposition to state gun laws.

- ORC 2923.126 is clear. Among other things, it lists the places where a concealed carry license does not authorize an individual to carry a *concealed* handgun. RTA buses and the like are not one of those places.

- ORC 2923.16 is clear. With regard to those possessing a concealed handgun license, there is NO requirement that one’s handgun be concealed while in or on a vehicle. See, for example, 2923.16 (F)(5).

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I would send them a suggestion of how to word their policy. A good example comes from my hometown Metro Transit.

http://www.kmetro.com/riding/rules-conduct
RTA's problem isn't how to *word* policies, it's that (as best as I can tell) they still feel they're above the law.

Remember, here's what RTA's CEO said in a November **2015** e-mail to RTA's legal counsel and its Board chairman:

"It appears that from a purely legal perspective we may not have support for our position banning firearms carried by people with a concealed carry permit under the ORC. We like other transit agencies have responded that we feel strongly that there should be no weapons on our vehicles given that we are responsible/liable for what occurs on them. I would prefer we force someone to litigate before we roll over and encourage a change."

Don't get hung up with their claimed responsibility, btw.
 

RCall

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
113
Location
Miami County Ohio
I would send them a suggestion of how to word their policy. A good example comes from my hometown Metro Transit.

http://www.kmetro.com/riding/rules-conduct

I disagree with the wording of this. While people that are well versed on the law know they can carry, all that most people read is up to that first comma and they assume they can't carry which is what they want you to believe. Simply writing that firearm possession shall be in compliance with law would be better IMHO.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Just to be clear...

Despite the partially accurate articles posted with today's (6/6/17) date, and based on information I've received:

** DAYTON's RTA is still NOT IN COMPLIANCE with Ohio law. **

RTA asserts that they have the right to deny boarding to openly carrying individuals who refuse to show their CHL (concealed handgun license) to the bus driver.

Under Ohio law, RTA has no right to do so.


More work remains to be done.
 

DeSchaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
537
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
They're not going to learn. Reading the memos in article... really burns my gears. Open carry on buses still banned, lawful carry of other means of self defense still banned, carry of any kind inside a facility still banned. Ugh. I also wonder if a person was to take a sign to their property and stand there in protest... would they consider that loitering?
 
Top