• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

St. Louis Zoo: communication log + TRO filing/status + legal/financial help needed

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Glad donations are picking up. My wife and I meet you for the first time just recently in Jeff City at the Supreme Court on the hearing about Article 1 Section 23 of our states's Constitution and it's meaning as far as non-violent felons is concerned. You drove all the way from Ohio, sleeping in your car to get the rest you needed to complete the trip. I was very impressed in your commitment to our 2nd Amendment rights, not only in Missouri but in your state of Ohio as well.

Unlike some in any organization or now in this day and age, a forum...you are willing to stand your ground and stand up for your principles.

Did I agree with everything you did up to and including the Zoo event, you know that I didn't and I told you so, in fact I remember getting into a couple of "discussions". But I also told you that because of no fault of your own you were forced into this battle without having the necessary time to lay out a proper strategy. And that is the reason I put my money where my mouth is and helped in anyway I could during the early stages of this event.

It is unfortunate on a forum that should encourage your activities, they chastise you for standing up for "our" rights. But that is the nature of the breast, as they say. I too was chastised on this very forum for going into to a Columbia gun shop that does not support my right to open carry a firearm in the city limits of Columbia and voiced my opinion to them making a living off of the 2nd Amendment and not supporting it. As a result of the bad mouthing I received, I blocked and continue to block some folks on here.

The amount of time you have given and the money you have "put in the pot", would be shocking to some on here, so I will say thank-you for those that fail to see the importance of your "our" fight.

Thank-you again and may we all benefit from your efforts.

Bob and Vivian Yelkin.
Thanks for the kind words, Bob.

In this fight (as it has developed) we all have various roles that we can, are willing, and/or are able to play, but people should know that Bob contacted me before the day of the Zoo challenge had even ended and offered financial assistance as well as help directing me to a capable attorney friend.

I don't say this to put him on a pedestal any more than I feel that "my" challenging the Zoo puts me there or is about me.

This battle is about and for US, and many un-cited people have and continue to play vital roles in singular or multiple ways. I'm the guy out front, and I'll claim credit for various things, but this was and is a TEAM effort.

Finally, since it may not be clear to some: if after research, consultation, and feedback, I had determined that despite my strong desire to shut down what I felt were the Zoo's overarching claims, the battle couldn't reasonably be waged - I would have regretfully accepted the permanent injunction and moved on, older and wiser. Thankfully, that didn't happen.
 

Mike Rekart

Newbie
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
5
Location
o'fallon, mo
Request to Video Record hearing Denied by Judge

Denied by the Judge

Mike,
Judge Moriarty declined. FYI, she has never approved a video request. Of
course, you are welcome to attend without a camera.

Thom Gross
Public Information Officer
Twenty-Second Judicial Circuit of Missouri
Carnahan Courthouse
1114 Market Street. Room 805B
St. Louis, MO, 63101
Phone: (314) 622-5685
Fax: (314)622-4459
http://www.stlcitycircuitcourt.com/
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
A very generous individual has offered to match the next $500 in donations dollar for dollar - whether donations are mailed directly to Ms. Hogan (preferably, because GoFundMe charges ~10% in fees), or made through GoFundMe.

Because of this match offer, the next $500 in donations will actually result in $1,000 of donations.

Donations can be sent to Ms. Hogan made out to "Jane C. Hogan, IOLTA Trust". Please put "Jeffry Smith" or "St. Louis Zoo" in the memo. Her address is 5216 Chippewa Street, St. Louis, MO 63109.

Alternatively, you can contribute via GoFundMe at this address: https://www.gofundme.com/rp5tgsps

THANK YOU.

Christopher Miller has made a $20 donation via GoFundMe, leaving $60 remaining to be matched.

I've sent a thank you note to him and would like to again thank the individual who offered to match contributions.
 
Last edited:

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
The Zoo has big plans, part of which involve more taxpayer money: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_a6372173-5e81-50ac-85d1-ebae9b68dade.html

"The St. Louis Zoo has agreed to buy the sprawling south St. Louis County animal park Grant’s Farm for about $30 million from six heirs of beer baron August A. “Gussie” Busch Jr. But the deal only goes through if a city judge backs four of six Busch heirs seeking to release the land from a trust — and if area residents approve an added tax to fund as much as $8.5 million in yearly park operation costs..."
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
A very generous individual has offered to match the next $500 in donations dollar for dollar - whether donations are mailed directly to Ms. Hogan (preferably, because GoFundMe charges ~10% in fees), or made through GoFundMe.

Because of this match offer, the next $500 in donations will actually result in $1,000 of donations.

Donations can be sent to Ms. Hogan made out to "Jane C. Hogan, IOLTA Trust". Please put "Jeffry Smith" or "St. Louis Zoo" in the memo. Her address is 5216 Chippewa Street, St. Louis, MO 63109.

Alternatively, you can contribute via GoFundMe at this address: https://www.gofundme.com/rp5tgsps

THANK YOU.
Matt Peiffer, an OCDO member who otherwise wants to remain anonymous, has made a $100 donation via GoFundMe, completing the $500 match - so $500 has become $1,000!

My deepest appreciation to Matt and to everyone who has contributed so far.

The total contributions stand at $1,220 (gross) via GoFundMe (~$1,100 net) and $1,200 sent directly to Ms. Hogan.

You didn't hear this from me, but I think how the Zoo conducts itself next Tuesday may be insightful as to the extent of indirect expenses.

THANK YOU to all, again.


I sincerely hope those who are able to attend come to court next Tuesday, 11/24/15 @ 9:30 AM. The judge has allocated the entire day to the hearing.

22nd Judicial Court of Missouri (the old United States Court House and Custom House) at the corner of Market St. & Tucker Blvd, in Judge Moriarity's courtroom, 5th floor.

Courthouse street address: 1144 Market St., St Louis, MO 63101




In order to avoid GoFundMe fees of 8-10%, checks can be sent to Ms. Hogan, made out to "Jane C. Hogan, IOLTA Trust". Please put "Jeffry Smith" or "St. Louis Zoo" in the memo. Her address is 5216 Chippewa Street, St. Louis, MO 63109.

Alternately, the GoFundMe campaign can be found at https://www.gofundme.com/rp5tgsps
 
Last edited:

dkangel

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
95
Location
Wildwood, Missouri, USA
Donation Made.

Just donated $100. Gotta put up or shut up, don't matter if its ten dollars or one hundred. Every bit counts for someone from out of state defending our rights.

Thanks Jeff.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Just donated $100. Gotta put up or shut up, don't matter if its ten dollars or one hundred. Every bit counts for [strike]someone from out of state[/strike] defending our rights.

Thanks Jeff.
FIFY :(

ALL people are invited/implored to reach into their check book and piggy bank. This goes to the "....and when they came for me...." thing. We gotta stand together, don't you know.
 

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
FIFY :(

ALL people are invited/implored to reach into their check book and piggy bank. This goes to the "....and when they came for me...." thing. We gotta stand together, don't you know.

You could give him a free banner add. Up there ^^.

Next to all the ads for holsters and lawyers.

Properly arranged, it might be a tax write off for the board owner.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
You could give him a free banner add. Up there ^^.

Next to all the ads for holsters and lawyers.

Properly arranged, it might be a tax write off for the board owner.
Cute, but not of any responsible benefit.

This thread is for interested parties to stay up to date and donate as they may wish.

The thread is NOT open to debate, criticism,or sarcasm from those who may not agree with the principal(s) and/or method(s) to solicit funds.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,936
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
There have been out of state donators. I would think there would be many many donators from Missouri. Is the "Show-Me" state requiring a win, Show-Me, before a donation is forthcoming? I hope I'm wrong. I hope the gofundme page is not a reflection of the true participation.

I hope I'm wrong....
 

STLDaniel

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
86
Location
Saint Louis
There have been out of state donators. I would think there would be many many donators from Missouri. Is the "Show-Me" state requiring a win, Show-Me, before a donation is forthcoming? I hope I'm wrong. I hope the gofundme page is not a reflection of the true participation.

I hope I'm wrong....

Couldn't tell exactly how you determined how many in state/out of state donations where made. Didn't see any kind of reporting by state on the go fund me site, but I've not used that site much, so any direction you could provide in that regard would be helpful.

As far as how well it reflects true participation... according to the figures around Nov 19th:
The total contributions stand at $1,220 (gross) via GoFundMe (~$1,100 net) and $1,200 sent directly to Ms. Hogan.
Only about half the donations were through GoFundMe, with the others going directly to Ms. Hogan. Of those that went through GoFundMe, just under half are listed as anonymous.
From the information that is available on this thread and the GoFundMe site, as well as personal conversations, I can say of the ~$2500 donated, at least ~$1000 is from Missouri. I do not know where most of the remaining ~$1500 came from.

That being said, it's easy for me to say "we're in this together" because it's happening in my state. I am truly appreciative of everyone's donations and especially those coming from those of you out of state who could easily say "not my fight". (And a special thank you for all of Jeff's hard work, time and money he's putting into this!)
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,936
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I know BB62 is appreciative of all donations from whatever source. My point is, is this all Missourians can muster-up for an issue of this importance. If it is, God help you. There should be at this time a minimum fund raising from Missourians of $5,000. This is no reflection on those Missourians that stepped up to the plate. But, moral support does not pay the bills.

Your state has a grand opportunity to capture a large piece of ground in the gun rights movement. But to me it looks like Missourians could care less.

I did my little part. It's time for Missourians to get behind this.

Nothing further to say.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I know BB62 is appreciative of all donations from whatever source. My point is, is this all Missourians can muster-up for an issue of this importance. If it is, God help you. There should be at this time a minimum fund raising from Missourians of $5,000. This is no reflection on those Missourians that stepped up to the plate. But, moral support does not pay the bills.

Your state has a grand opportunity to capture a large piece of ground in the gun rights movement. But to me it looks like Missourians could care less.

I did my little part. It's time for Missourians to get behind this.

Nothing further to say.
Spread the word to other forums and social media like Facebook, signs in gun shops, talk it up at the range & hand out fliers - there are many RKBA people who probably do not know about this.

Get a pro member of your legislature on board publicly - the media will do your work for you interviewing him/her.

Giving is a commendable act, getting others to give (positive motivation) is the force multiplier.
 
Last edited:

John Pierce

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,777
I dont know if it is FREE! But
their IS a banner ad, up there^^^^^

I placed the banner there in the hopes that we could support one of our own! Jeff is fighting the good fight and has spent a great deal of his own money to do so. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far!
 

STLDaniel

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
86
Location
Saint Louis
Prelim hearing notes

I've sat through the preliminary hearing, and while I never was good in school at taking notes, I did my best.

Counsel for the zoo led with an opening statement basically reading his petition. Rather pointless, since the petition is already on record, but we sat through it. He called a single witness, a Mr. Deschamp. Something like the VP of Internal Relations and Director of H.R.

There was a subpoena by the defense requesting Mr. Deschamp be available for testimony and to bring all documentation relied on for the initial verified petition. They attempted to ignore that subpoena and move to quash. It was ultimately upheld, and they produced about 30 pages. Evidently, he hadn't relied on much other than his "own institutional knowledge" when he signed the original verified petition.

The crux of their argument is that:
1) Preemption only applies with a valid CCW permit
2) CCW permits are not authorized in certain areas and the the zoo falls within at least 3, possibly 4 of them:
a) A Day Care Facility
b) An educational institution
c) An amusement park
d) "Any organization"

Regarding "A Day Care Facility". Mr Deschamp testified that they had a "State regulated pre-school". This was a change from his verified petition which called it a "licensed" pre-school. They had been asked to produce their license, which they don't have and amended their wording. They believe they qualify for an exemption. Mr. Deschamp is not aware why they qualify or if an exemption was ever applied for.
He testified that the entire 90-acre zoo campus is used by the pre-school. On cross examination he was asked if the zoo sells alcohol. He said they do. MO law referenced states that alcohol sales are barred within 100 feet of schools, and he bumbled around trying to reconcile how the entire campus is a pre-school, yet can still sell alcohol.

Regarding an "educational institution" (side note here, the CCW gun free zone specifically stipulates schools, not all educational institutions). He based this primarily on an agreement with the Saint Louis Special school district. That agreement was produced via the above noted subpoena and shows the agreement is a work agreement to provide SSD teachers with work experience, not to provide educational programming. He also believes they fall into this category because of summer camps and programs that happen there.

Regarding the amusement park, they relied on having several rides (a carousel and a 3d motion simulator), the train, and attractions, even the animals as an attraction. They also referenced an award from the International Association of Amusement Parks. During cross examination, the actual name was referenced as "International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions". The "and attractions" was pointed out by the defense, yet downplayed by the plaintiff. Tax records where presented by the defense showing that they do not pay sales tax on the amusement rides (as is required by MO for amusement parks). It was also noted that each of the "rides" is separately gated and not generally accessible by the public in the same way that the majority of the zoo grounds are.

Zoo counsel admitted that the "any organization" statute they may fall under was vague. Defense claimed that it wasn't when read in entirety which begins with a clarifier noting private property.

After the plaintiff rested, (and after a lunch break) Jeff was called to testify for the defense. My opinion, there's not much to say here. Jeff did well, his attorney did well, but there's just not much that really mattered. The fun part was the cross examination of the earlier witness.

To win the prelim injunction they need:
1) Threat of irreparable harm:
For this they relied on "many phone calls" from parents who would pull their children out of zoo programs if guns were allowed. He did not keep any records on these calls, and testified under cross that he did not verify if these callers even had children in zoo programs.

2) Balance of harm to both parties
He stated Jeff could still come to the zoo, so he was not harmed by the injunction.

3) Probability of success on permanent injunction
Basically the case above

4) Public interest
In short, the legislature's establishment of "gun free zones" shows public interest is served by them.


Overall I felt the defense did a wonderful job, and showed how twisted the zoo's interpretation of the law is. I'm still not optimistic that a lower court judge will be willing to stand up for our gun rights, and this is probably still headed for the long fight up the system.

One other thing of note. They testified that the zoo has a gun check/lockers. On request, you can check your gun into a locker at the zoo ranger station for the duration of your visit.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,936
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
That's it??? It sounds like all the zoo said was mommy, mommy Johnny made funny faces at me, make him stop.

Where is the substance of the zoo's claim? What, you say, all smoke and mirrors. No fire.

Unless the zoo's brief had any case law to support them the judge does not have much of a choice, but dismiss.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
That's it??? It sounds like all the zoo said was mommy, mommy Johnny made funny faces at me, make him stop.

Where is the substance of the zoo's claim? What, you say, all smoke and mirrors. No fire.

Unless the zoo's brief had any case law to support them the judge does not have much of a choice, but dismiss.

Tell that to the judge. His courtroom, his rules, his decision.

Don't like it, appeal....move up the food chain. That is how the system works.

The judge's personal opinion, agenda, or weak sister mentality could effect the outcome here.

Waiting.
 
Top